Lupiverse(es)

Lee Berman · 13 Mar 2012, 02:18 · from 2012-March.txt.gz

This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.

From: severiansola at hotmail.com (Lee Berman)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:18:35 -0400
Subject: (urth) Lupiverse(es)
Message-ID: <SNT123-W1547D10AA5F11D1C8C9573CF580 at phx.gbl>

>Antonio Pedro Marques: I don't know what the two of you are discussing, 

>but the portuguese words for gift and now are the same.

Thanks Antonio. I have noticed your linguistic knowledgeablity before and

I always appreciate your help in this area. Maybe if I amend my statement

from "english" to Indo-European languages it would become true. I dunno.

But I still think it probably refers to earth languages and is thus a bit 

of evidence against the theory I lean toward.

>Andrew Mason: I think he [Dionysus]must be significant somehow. It's partly 

>through him, I think, that the Rajan becomes aware of the way in which gods 

>can be forms of the Outsider;...so he must have been added to the story
>for some reason. I totally agree that the passage isn't telling us who
>the Outsider really is - that's been established by lots of references
>- if anything, it's telling us who Dionysus really is. But Wolfe seems
>to attach importance to it for some reason. Perhaps because his
>connection with wine makes him a prefiguring of Christ?

This is along the lines of my own view. And while wine (and vines ;-)) are

a part of it, there might be an even more important part:

Dionysus was an ancient rustic god of the Greeks and so could be said to be

a father or grandfather of Zeus. Then later he ends up as the son of Zeus.

Later still, belief in the Greek Pantheon fades away but Dionysus (and his

ephithets) worship carries on and with him more as a spirit presence than his 

previous androgenous incarnation. 

Thus Dionysus represents a pre-christian example of a father-son-spirit trinity. 

And yes there is a good chance this was part of the importance wine plays in 

Christianity. The Mediterranean religions were always borrowing concepts from 

their neighbors and passing them on to future generations.

In Long/Short Sun, I see the paternal-filial confusion of Zeus-Dionysus played 

out with Silk and Pas with the spiritual side of Dionysus being played by the 

Outsider. The use of a Dionysian reference says to me that like Dionysus (and 

The Cumaean Sybil) this is a herald to a future Christianity and Trinity to 

come, rather than some remnant echo of a previous Christ.

My own thoughts had been that Urth's (and Briah's) Christ would come in its 

own future. But I must admit I find Dan'l hypothesis to be compelling:  that 

earth's Christ transcends universal time and echoes back to Briah and Urth and 

Blue etc. 

But to be ready for Christ, a world must pass through certain stages, one of 

them being a Flood.  Thus I see Blue and Ushas as prepared for the coming of 

Christ but not Urth nor Green yet. This is how I see the solution to Marc's 

"Green is Urth" mystery. (though I know he sees it differently). 

urth and Green and antediluvian earth are/were so overrun with superhuman 

monsters (Bible-nephilim and demons. etc/) that humanity really didn't stand a 

chance of resisting.

There are demons to be found on Ushas, Blue and our post-Flood earth but, through 

God's intervention on our behalf, they are now manageable problems. Thus, we 

became ready for Christ and so are Blue and Ushas.

An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net