This Week in Google Alerts: Home Fires

David Stockhoff · 11 Apr 2012, 19:25 · from 2012-April.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:25:48 -0400
Subject: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: Home Fires
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On 4/11/2012 11:18 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
> DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote (11-04-2012 15:11):
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>
>> *From:* "entonio at gmail.com" <entonio at gmail.com>
>> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:47 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: Home Fires
>>
>> No dia 11/04/2012, ?s 12:49, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net
>> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> escreveu:
>>
>> > On 4/11/2012 7:28 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From another angle: severed limbs and stoning is what you have in 
>> Iran or
>> >> Saudi Arabia, two of the few countries which claim to base their 
>> laws on
>> >> sharia. Now, if iranians or saudi arabians living in Europe claim 
>> for the
>> >> introduction of sharia into the european legal systems, how come 
>> is an end
>> >> result of severed limbs and stonings a bogeyman?
>> >
>> > Because they'd probably have to stage a revolution to do so---a
>> revolution which is not mentioned in HF.
>>
>> It's them claiming there is a demographic revolution going on, not their
>> opponents.
>>
>> ---False. Their opponents DO claim that. Google something like "Europe
>> demographics Islam."
>
> Look, it isn't like I haven't been following the issue for ages... I 
> live in Europe, you know. Their opponents only began talking about the 
> demography *echoing* what the islamists had been boasting for long.

I guess we're talking about different opponents, because although I know 
there are anti-immigrant politicians across Europe, we generally only 
hear about our own in the US. Here, Islamists boast of nothing. They 
keep quiet. But I did not contradict you on that point, but on the point 
of whether their opponents speak up. Here, they do nothing else.
>
>> > Whereas the bogeyman of today (or rather from a few years ago) is
>> depicted as a creeping horror.
>>
>> But it's *you* calling it an horror, it's you condemning 'sharia'. The
>> people professing an islamic form of government cannot object to it. 
>> You're
>> arguing as if severed limbs and stonings were not hallmarks of penal 
>> systems
>> claiming to be based on sharia, but rather a libel. Wel, they are 
>> not. The
>> Saudis and the Iranians aren't shy about defending those penalties.
>>
>> ---Like most Muslims, I approve of sharia without the medieval 
>> penalties.
>
> But what's sharia without the 'medieval' penalties, and what's about 
> it that should meet approval as opposed to what we have in our current 
> legal systems?

I don't think that makes sense. What would any justice system be 
without, say, a death penalty?
>
>> You're arguing as if all Muslims are fundamentalists like Iran and Saudi
>> Arabia.
>
> No, I'm saying those are the countries where it has been given legal 
> weight. Most muslims do *not* live under sharia, nor do they desire to.

OK then.
>
>> > Why would people who have fled repression of any kind be so keen on
>> recreating it in their new country?
>>
>> I could say 'ask them', but the fact is that they came to europe 
>> feeing from
>> poverty, not from repression.
>>
>> ---For the most part, yes. So what? Are they then Islamic fundies 
>> fleeing
>> anti-sharia repression so they can set up Islamic republics? You've 
>> answered
>> the question.
>
> They - the ones who claim for sharia - are islamic traditionalists 
> unwilling to live and let live by the laws of the societies that they 
> went to live in.

As any believer in any system would do anywhere. I'm aware of the 
tension. But are they so hot on amputating right hands that they will 
succeed in establishing a European caliphate solely for that purpose? 
I'll tell you what I think---that would make a great SF story.

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