Urth Net
Pirate Freedom revisited
David Stockhoff · 03 Nov 2012, 21:49
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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 17:49:17 -0400 Subject: (urth) Pirate Freedom revisited In-Reply-To: <CAGB0RZ6Jmi2G4_6jSG6emjULU8ZL-Yrph2zbvbBFOnoY0UKD5Q at mail.gmail.com> References: <CAFNUQcr1mJFiNDNS18OCuxfNvYzf35X9Qt+OKBCg6qjeifPcjw at mail.gmail.com> <CAGB0RZ6etXVi4E1w1ePhetzn_twBsvqxTTfagV86EiV4StaJJQ at mail.gmail.com> <CAFNUQcpwHnteun6ggceAyXO1uzeCYPPGbzFWgE9iBsknVdi4-w at mail.gmail.com> <CAGB0RZ6Jmi2G4_6jSG6emjULU8ZL-Yrph2zbvbBFOnoY0UKD5Q at mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5095915D.1080701 at verizon.net> Me too. Chris seemed to me like a more or less "good" (or at least civilized and self-aware) person who does bad things, some of them necessary but by no means all. On 11/3/2012 5:37 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote: > Yeah, that's a plausible reading. I need to read the book again. I > came away with the kind of possibilities you're suggesting here in > tension with what seemed to me a more spiritually sensitive person in > the confessor. Thus making Chris a much more complex character than > either simply 'good' or simply 'evil' (the latter being what I think > your reading avers), a little closer to the moral complexity of > someone like Severian perhaps. > > -DOJP > > On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Ed EDson <thalassocrat12 at gmail.com > <mailto:thalassocrat12 at gmail.com>> wrote: > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 3:25 AM, Daniel Petersen > <danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com > <mailto:danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>> wrote: > > The Chris who is writing the story seems a bit more complex > than some cunning greedy mob boss type. His commentary on > both his pirate adventures and his current Catholic and urban > context suggests a very theologically, morally, and > spiritually engaged character. > > (Apols for the name change - I screwed up setting up a new gmail > account.) > I read the book differently. I think in Chris Wolfe paints a > picture of a character who knows what "good" is but who wilfully > chooses "evil" in his *actions*, which is all that matters in the > end. He makes repeated repeated confessions, but they are all bad > confessions, because there is no actual repentance. > For example, look at how he discusses "offing" Michet & recall > that explaining this murder is why he says he is writing at all. > Michet was a pirate the Spanish would have hanged out of hand; > Michet could have been killed in the fight anyway & it's just > chance that he wasn't; Chris didn't have a choice, because he > couldn't keep respect if he let Michet's insolence go unpunished. > Finally, it's God's fault for plopping Chris down in those times, > and Chris would do it all over again - "I would have to". > In the end, Ignacio of course does choose that it happen all over > again. No matter what excuses you can make for 17 year old Chris, > you can't make any excuses for that. > I think Chris ending up as an evil old mob reptile is totally > appropriate and it's one of the reasons why I like my elaborated > chronology. > > On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Ed EDson > <thalassocrat12 at gmail.com <mailto:thalassocrat12 at gmail.com>> > wrote: > > Many moons ago I worked out the chronology below & posted > it to this list. Having just re-read PF I think this can > be elaborated in interesting ways. > The idea starts with my observation that Chris seems to > return to the future in the same year he was born, around > 2007. This leads to thinking about Chris' transitions. We > are told nothing about how or why these occur, but I think > at first it is natural to suppose the transition ot the > past has something to do with Chris being at the monastery. > However, there are objections. First, only Chris and > Ingnacio appear to make the transition - Chris is > convinced he would not be able to return to the monastery, > for example. Second, his return to the future happens from > a different place, out in the sea - so at least that > transition doesn't depend on the monastery. > What if the transition is personal to Chris, dependent on > time and not on place? Wherever Chris is in ~2024, he > would be sent to the past, and wherever he is in ~1675, he > would be sent to 2007. But Ignacio is Chris, so he goes > back when Chris goes back - but also, he goes forward when > Chris goes forward. > Now the direction in which this is heading should be > obvious - perhaps Chris is his own father. If the baby > Novia is carrying is in fact Chris, it (and hopefully she > herself!) will be carried forward from 1675, along with > Ignacio. > Obviously we don't know exactly what happens then, but we > can make up plausible stories. Perhaps Novia-in-the-future > dies, perhaps Ignacio sells her or kills her. In any > event, whatever he says or believes of himself, Chris' > actions are motivated, overwhelmingly, by money. (Eg: see > what happens when he meets Lesage before the massacre at > Rio hato - he hugs him; he *thinks* of Valentin, but it > "didn't seem to be the time to bring it up", because he > was too busy pulling gold off the mules.) To me it's > surely the case that Ignacio-in-1675 was working with > Ignacio, sealing a bond by killing Valentin for him, and > then plotting with him the hijack of the gold and the > massacre. > So when Ignacio and Chris meet at the end of the book, I > think it's clear enough that Ignacio has a share of the > Rio Hato gold stashed somehwere and of course plans to dig > up Captain Burt's treasure also. > But then he gets snatched back to 2007, totally > unexpected. Imagine how pissed he must have been! Back to > the drawing board. He's now ~36 years old. He'll spend the > next 10 years getting mobbed up and raising Chris in NJ, > sans Novia. Sent to Cuba to run the casino, he'll do what > needs to be done to "engineer" Chris, by making sure he is > under the wing of his younger self at the monastery, and > setting in place the events leading to his own birth. > When Chris goes back, he does too, as a ~53 year old, and > does what needs to be done to make sure that all the > treasure is someplace where he can retieve it in the > future - he knows everything that Ignacio has plotted, of > course, so for a man of his resourcefulness ripping off > both his younger selves shouldn't be a huge problem. > Returning to 2007 as a ~55 year old, with access to > treasure worth many millions, and knowing everything that > "Chris' dad" knew, perhaps on this run-through he becomes > some kind of mob top management, in a position to send his > younger self to Cuba to run the casino ... Does he go > back again, or does he die sometime before the clock ticks > on 2024 again - who knows? > Post from 2007: > "I come to the following conclusions: > > - Chris1's "birthday" is around about now; 2007. > - Chris2 is writing in about 2017. > - Chris2 appeared from the past around about the same time as > Chris1 was born, so 2007 again (interesting ...) > - The pirate-action happens in about 1675. > > Here's how I get there. First, we have some information about > various events in Chris1's time-line: > > A: "Born" > B: Goes to Cuba > C: Enters monastery school > D: Begins novitiate > E: Ends novitiate & goes to past > F: Goes forward again > > We know: > > B = A+10 (he goes to Cuba at age 10). > C = A+13 (approx: he went to school "a few years" after > arriving in > Cuba). > D = A+16 (approx: "A year seems like a lifetime at that > age, so > three or maybe four lifetimes passed before I went from > being a > student to being a novice ...") > E = A+17 (a novitiate normally lasting one year?) > F = A+19 (or less: the pirate-time doesn't seem to have > been more > than this to me.) > > For Chris2, we know he is 28 or 29 when he goes to Cuba to > become > Ignacio: he's 28 at the time of his interview with Bishop > Scully, > with maybe a birthday before he finishes writing. Assuming > "F" > above is right, he was 19 when he appeared from the past, > so that > was about ten years before he heads to Cuba. > > And so, assuming he goes to Cuba at around "B", when > Chris1 and his > father go, the date of his appearance from the past must > have been > around about "A". > > In other words, he comes back at about the same time he > was "born". > > > We have reasonable dating for the "past" action. Captain > Burt > speaks of Drake in the Golden Hind sailing around the > world "almost > a hundred years ago". This voyage lasted from 1577 through > 1580. > Let's say "E" = 1675. > > We can use this to kludge up an estimate for the "present" > datings. > At the very end of the book, Chris2 says: "Today .. we > have been > dead 300 years". This is rubbery, but let's assume that > Chris2 > assumes he's going to live a three-score-and-ten. That > gives him > another 41 or 42 years at the time he's writing. So, back > in the > "past", he would live until about 1675+42 = 1717. Three > hundred > years on from then is 2017. > > That fixes an approximate date for "B", the date when > Chris1 and > (presumably) Chris2 both arrive in Cuba - about 10 years > into our > future. And Chris1 is being decanted from his test-tube or > whatever > just about now." > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
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