What symbols mean for Wolfe

Bill Burgess · 27 Nov 2012, 01:16 · from 2012-November.txt.gz

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From: whburth at gmail.com (Bill Burgess)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:16:11 -0800
Subject: (urth) What symbols mean for Wolfe
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The medium is the message?

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Adam Thornton <athornton at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think maybe there's a third principle to add to my Two Keys To Wolfe,
> but I think they're all articulations of the same ur-theme, which I haven't
> found a nice concise aphorism.  I'll put the new one first:
>
> 1) Symbols are Real
> 2) You Are What You Eat
> 3) You Become What You Imitate
>
> 1 and 3 are the same thing in different guises, I think, and 2 is a
> special case of 3, maybe.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Daniel Petersen <
> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We need the illusion(?) of free
>> will to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly
>> religious must
>> somehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the
>> creation of an
>> omniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would
>> irrevocably lead
>> to every single micro-choice we end up making in life.
>>
>>
>> Well, many theologies don't at all think it follows from a doctrine of
>> God (e.g. omniscience and omnipotence) that every 'micro-choice' of
>> creatures is thereby determined and fixed without reference to the subject
>> making his or her own meaningful and actual choice.  As I say, I suspect
>> Wolfe is giving space for these variant theologies to wrestle in the Solar
>> Cycle rather than simply embodying one or the other.  (As does Catholic
>> teaching in general, I believe.)
>>
>> In terms of symbology, the coin, and I'm pretty sure other moments, point
>> fairly strongly in the direction of some kind of theological determinism
>> (compatibilist).  The characterisations, as has been suggested, perhaps
>> point in a more theologically libertarian freewill direction.  What I'm
>> wondering is whether there are *symbols* in the work that image forth
>> libertarian notions.  Anyone?
>>
>> -DOJP
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think
>>> Severian was not
>>> >freely making the decisions which lead him on his path.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by
>>> Severian's/Wolfe's own
>>> line that "We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they
>>> invent us; we are their
>>> creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.".
>>>
>>> This would appear to fly in the face of "free will". How can we fully
>>> have it if "symbols"
>>> can control and define our choices?
>>>
>>> I think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the
>>> illusion(?) of free
>>> will to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the
>>> devoutly religious must
>>> somehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the
>>> creation of an
>>> omniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would
>>> irrevocably lead
>>> to every single micro-choice we end up making in life.
>>>
>>> The quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin
>>> he received from
>>> Vodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an
>>> attachment to Vodalus
>>> and the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his
>>> guild in regard to
>>> Vodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.
>>>
>>> (it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself
>>> adopting and what choices
>>> he ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US
>>> military uniform and gun)
>>>
>>> I wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to
>>> wear in Short Sun. I think
>>> we readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like
>>> beings to possess him or
>>> influence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have
>>> symbolic meaning. Perhaps
>>> a practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent
>>> powerful forces beyond our
>>> understanding.
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>>
>>
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