Urth Net
Thecla's "Identity"
Ross Arlen Tieken · 08 Apr 2013, 17:13
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From: ross.a.tieken at gmail.com (Ross Arlen Tieken) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 12:13:33 -0500 Subject: (urth) Thecla's "Identity" In-Reply-To: <CAJ8=rthoxKzPF0ce8HA_9QR3k=aELvKS2YyZHAGa7E4GVGHaEg at mail.gmail.com> References: <1365187464.38641.YahooMailClassic at web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <77A89DC1-FA8E-4487-960E-3C0758DF3D43 at gmail.com> <5162DAC7.7030903 at gmail.com> <AF371CE4-1A32-420E-ACEF-5BA428D351B5 at gmail.com> <CAJ8=rtgTTFx8a2PnoP1vCkdVZ0bA7LncDFaZTZFeLKUPxw2u8Q at mail.gmail.com> <66F28CB2-1C6A-48C0-8A1C-3C24F96D1926 at gmail.com> <CAJ8=rthoxKzPF0ce8HA_9QR3k=aELvKS2YyZHAGa7E4GVGHaEg at mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D71D1D9-9CF4-4AFD-8F6A-662B5E700DE0 at gmail.com> Awesome! Thanks! R On Apr 8, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > The Vulgate is online, with interlineal translations, at http://vulgate.org/ > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Ross Arlen Tieken <ross.a.tieken at gmail.com > > wrote: > Oh and thanks for the Latin--I was translating backwards from the > English, I don't have a copy of the Vulgate, unfortunately. > > > On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > >> Rose: >> >> Some wonderful insights, with which I would pick but two nits: >> >> The feast in the forest is specifically a _perversion_ of the >> Eucharist, which Severian by his nature purifies (this is why his >> "copy" of Thecla's memories is more powerful than is usual for >> these feasts -- indeed she seems to be resurrected in him). >> >> And second, Jesus' last words in John (second-to-last by Tradition: >> we Catholics have a traditional view of the Seven Words from the >> Cross, and say that His very last words were "Father, into Your >> hands I commend my spirit") were not "Summatum est" but >> "Consummatum est," it is completed. >> >> --Dan'l >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Ross Arlen Tieken <ross.a.tieken at gmail.com >> > wrote: >> You're more than welcome! >> I would study good 'ol Julius, but he's doing something different >> with occultism by incorporating a strange un-Hindu Hinduism a la >> Blavatsky. >> Also, talk about career suicide. I'm already skirting sudden death >> by studying anyone who was involved with nationalism... or >> Catholicism which is almost as bad to the post-modern academy. >> Evola would be a highway to hell in a handbag. >> I also personally do not share his worldview and social critique >> although I recognize its power. I think too much self-reflexive >> occultism & esotericism is not a good thing; Orthodoxy is esoteric >> enough without pulling arcane antics. Again, Pound didn't see that-- >> Eliot certainly did, and so did the Catholic liturgical theologian >> Odo Casel. You should check out The Mystery of Christian Worship. >> If I didn't know better, I'd say Wolfe had read Casel--that >> Severian, when he takes Thecla's body and the Autarch's body, is >> participating in the Christian Eucharist, along with Horn/Silk when >> he sacrifices at the Altar of the Neighbors in On Green's Jungles >> (of bread and wine?! Could you be any more clear, Gene?). >> Wolfe has said that Severian "is a Christian," not an allegorical >> Christ figure. But it seems that Severian is so Christ-like... a >> savior, he carries a cross (Terminus Est; in English "It is the >> end." Christ's last words: Summatum Est "It is finished" [John >> 19:30]). But Severian, if he is a Christian (according to Odo >> Casel, Gregory Dix, and other orthodox Catholic Eucharistic >> theology), he is a member of Christ's mystical body! This, I think >> could help us understand Wolfe's assertion: Christ only came once, >> but His mystical body lasts for all time. Wolfe accidentally (or >> not accidentally, I can't decide which) engages with an ancient >> understanding of Christian worship constantly throughout the Solar >> Cycle. I actually don't see how it's possible to understand the >> Solar Cycle without looking at Wolfe's Catholic Modernist bent. >> But anyway, Evola's not playing the same card game. Or at least , >> he's got some cards up his sleeve from a different deck. >> >> Also, don't steal this without attributing me, please. I'm sharing >> this with y'all because this mailing list is such a wonderful idea. >> I'm writing something about this as we speak--and I'll give y'all a >> link when I'm finished. >> >> R >> >> Ross Arlen Tieken >> Religious Studies >> Rice University >> >> On Apr 8, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: >> >>> No dia 06/04/2013, ?s 00:36, Ross Arlen Tieken <ross.a.tieken at gmail.com >>> > escreveu: >>> >>>> When I spoke of the Catholic modernists, I should have been more >>>> precise. The modernists all have weird spiritual proclivities. >>>> Eliot wasn't technically a Catholic either. I should have >>>> clarified what I meant: They all have a mystical bent, believe in >>>> strong authority, and are inspired by myth, myths, and mythic >>>> worldviews, and the middle ages. This leads to the accusation of >>>> fascism (correct in Pound's case, dubious in Eliot and Tate's, >>>> completely inappropriate in the case of Tolkien and Lewis) and to >>>> the strong stroke of nationalism and ethnic myth-making in these >>>> authors. Wolfe definitely shares these preoccupations. See http://www.thenightland.co.uk/MYWEB/wolfemountains.html >>>> ; an essay on the importance of Tolkien which begins with the >>>> sentence "There is one very real sense in which the Dark Ages >>>> were the brightest of times, and it is this: that they were times >>>> of defined and definite duties and freedoms." In this, he echoes >>>> a Chestertonian defense of the Middle Ages and Catholic >>>> civilization. I also see in Wolfe an implicit defense of Neo- >>>> Feudalism and a strongly relgion-centric worldview. >>>> Pound was a bad fascist; he didn't understand that it depended >>>> upon the same assumptions that modernity did, and paid the price >>>> for it--he failed to see the 'real' problem on which his >>>> contemporaries easily picked up; not just any mythos is good >>>> enough, there has to be real sticking power and it has to based >>>> in some kind of transcendent truth/experience and allow also for >>>> the intuitive human good. Fascism of course fails utterly at >>>> providing this, but Tolkien & Eliot's strong ethnic (non-racial) >>>> Traditionalism and mystical monarchism worked fine. >>> >>> Interesting. Do you analyze Evola as well? >>> >>>> This is what I'm writing on for my dissertation, and I thought >>>> about including Wolfe although he's a little out of the time >>>> period. It's coming back though, these mystical traditional neo- >>>> feudal myth-making monarchist distributist Catholic artists. >>>> >>>> On Dan'l Danehy-Oakes note: Distributism is the Catholic economic >>>> theory; Marxism's assumptions about "the way stuff works" are >>>> absolutely not compatible with the Catholic vision of humanity-- >>>> nor is fascism, or hyper-capitalism for that matter. Both depend >>>> on a pseudo-scientific reading of humans--Catholics sort of >>>> aren't up for that. >>> >>> Precisely (whether one admits to the pseudo or not, which I do of >>> course). >>> >>>> Distributism (championed by Chesterton and Belloc, later by Eliot >>>> and the Southern Agrarians in America) fulfills the requirements >>>> of Catholic anthropology while seeking to correct the culture- >>>> killing nature of transnational corporate capitalism. Look it up, >>>> tell me what you think. >>>> >>>> Also, Wolfe is probably aware of Distributism and is a Catholic >>>> in good standing with the Church. http://ironicalcoincidings.wordpress.com/2011/10/28/inheriting-tolkien-pt-2-gene-wolfe/ >>> >>> Thank you for the link. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Urth Mailing List >>> To post, write urth at urth.net >>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Urth Mailing List >> To post, write urth at urth.net >> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >> >> >> >> -- >> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes >> _______________________________________________ >> Urth Mailing List >> To post, write urth at urth.net >> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > Ross Arlen Tieken > Religious Studies > Rice University > ross.a.tieken at gmail.com > (361) 407-0100 > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net Ross Arlen Tieken Religious Studies Rice University ross.a.tieken at gmail.com (361) 407-0100 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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