Time, Not Cloning

DAVID STOCKHOFF · 06 Aug 2013, 14:43 · from 2013-August.txt.gz

This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.

From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (DAVID STOCKHOFF)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 07:43:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (urth) Time, Not Cloning
In-Reply-To: <BLU175-W49F4D5FD2CB312C69669FCCF5D0 at phx.gbl>
References: <BLU175-W49F4D5FD2CB312C69669FCCF5D0 at phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1375800182.89381.YahooMailNeo at web84502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>






>________________________________
> From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> 
>Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 7:28 AM
>Subject: (urth) Time, Not Cloning
> 
>
>>Marc Aramini: Not to be all negative, and not that a title can't have 
>>two connotations, but there is a pretty explicit rumination on that 
>>shadow that comes from the hand of the secular authority administering 
>>justice, standing between the soon to be executed and the inexplicable 
>>divine justice, the increate or his symbol, the sun. 
>
>Not at all, Marc. Wolfe himself makes it clear that all things have
>multiple levels of meanings. It was just striking how Jeff's post suggested 
>a "ploughman's" meaning which I had never thought of and has been to my
>knoweldge generally overlooked. The ploughman's meaning being simultaneouly
>the lowest and highest level of understanding. The title may have, as you
>suggest, political and spiritual meaning, not to mention autobiographical.
>
>But it doesn't get much more simple, direct and basic than David's equation:
>Severian=Shadow=Khaibit=Clone. Which, given the literary proximity of 5HoC, 
>is an equation I'm currently finding it difficult to believe Wolfe never had 
>in mind. ??? ???  ??? ?  ??? ??? ? 
>
>
>
>The relation of the Shadow of the title to Severian is the tricky part. Is Severian even the Torturer? Possibly the Torturer is the Increate/Conciliator (since this universe is Fallen) and Severian is His shadow. A shadow need not always be a khaibit. But if the Torturer is a physical person, then he CAN be cloned. From there, nothing prevents us from assuming he HAS been cloned.
>
>Which doesn't mean that's all he is. I can only guess that to raise an Urthly being up to a level at which he can even be considered worthy of the Increate's direct attention must require ALL the magical technology at the Yesodis' disposal: cloning, breeding, training, time looping, feedback management, direct intervention, eidolons. Every meaning of "shadow" can be exploited, including Marc's literal/symbolic one (as opposed to the metaphorical sense of "copy").
>
>The awkward aspect of this equation is that it makes Severian both Shadow and Torturer. But we already know this must be true, since he dies so many times. This precedent---Severian as flesh and Severian as his own ghost---opens the gates to Severian as his own clone, Severian as his own puppet, Severian as his own descendent, etc.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20130806/497ba8db/attachment.htm>

An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net