silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels

Marc Aramini · 28 Aug 2013, 01:39 · from 2013-August.txt.gz

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From: marcaramini at yahoo.com (Marc Aramini)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 18:39:10 -0700
Subject: (urth) silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels
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Severian is a tricky case as far as free will and determinism goes - a WAY more ambiguous guy than Silk.  The whole might makes right attitude he shows in taming eata and the external descriptions of Severian as a very cruel and hard man in The Map shows to some degree a casuist: none of the bad stuff is my fault, I was a puppet... But I am a good ruler, obey me as I obey those powers we cannot understand.  The love of the dog for its master as the highest form of love, besides being touching, really reveals something about sev's adult perspective as well. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:52 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

> Severian, for example, is totally a clockwork figure---but not forever, since he becomes a god. Silk too may be freer in Mainframe than in his body.
> 
> On 8/24/2013 1:12 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen wrote:
>> 'He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up.  However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled by Mother.'
>> 
>> I think I agree with this.  I don't think that Silk being shown in various ways to be a 'clockwork figure' is meant to convey that he definitely is and always will be.  I think it indicates that *some* forces have that in mind for him as part of their master plan, but that the Outsider actually liberates Silk out of this simplistic pre-determinism into a responsive sort of agency as part of a 'greater plan' than the schemes of gods ontologically 'smaller' than the Outsider.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com <mailto:marcaramini at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>    By now everyone know I actually think Wolfe creates symbols and
>>    "metaphors" that are actually extremely literal.  Thus, Shadow
>>    Children riding Marshmen is the same as Shadow Children riding a
>>    man named Marsch (his name is misspelled in my copy as Marsh in
>>    the title "A Story by John V Marsh", which I feel might be
>>    intentional even if changed in later editions by copy editors).
>>    I've always felt that Silk felt particularly manipulated, and that
>>    this prompted his suicidal thoughts.  Kypris is equated with
>>    mother, Hyacinth, and Mamelta in his dreams.  I want to talk about
>>    the dancing toy that his mother makes move for him - I think this
>>    is a symbol of Silk, and that "mother" calls the shots.  When he
>>    is enlightened, that female dove voice he hears has always
>>    resonated, in my mind, with Kypris, and when mamelta is awakened I
>>    have always posited that her claim, "We will be lovers" is not
>>    from Mucor (who was insistent that no sex with Silk would occur in
>>    their first meeting) but actually from somewhere else.
>>    It is Mother who makes the little toy dance, it is Kypris who
>>    calls Silk to join with her and Typhon in mainframe, it is Kypris
>>    in Hyacinth that compels Silk to love a prostitute at first, and I
>>    think it is Kypris' voice in the enlightenment (which can have a
>>    physical cause and still be serving the Outsider, just as the
>>    castle in the sky is a tent full of hot air in New Sun - it has a
>>    physical cause, even though Crane's explanation seems absurd,
>>    training us NOT to look for it).
>>    I think that the rather odd naming of the dogs in the tunnels as
>>    gods is indicative of exactly what it implies literally: the gods
>>    are in the tunnels - the sleepers behind the seals of Pas.  Before
>>    his probably suicide attempt, Silk indicates that he is aware of
>>    his origins now and that he learned them in the time down below.     While we can say this is just a statement about humanity and the
>>    whorl, I think it is personal - he realizes that the things which
>>    control him (Mother Kypris) are using him like that dancing toy,
>>    that his enlightenment might be spurious and predetermined in that
>>    gnostic universe (how quickly the chalk of Silk for Calde goes up
>>    after his enlightenment - I've always felt this overdetermined
>>    beginning is part of that "clock work figure" of Silk and the
>>    whorl.  He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all
>>    set up.  However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I
>>    think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something
>>    far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk
>>    misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the
>>    Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male
>>    and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their
>>    little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled
>>    by Mother.
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Daniel Otto Jack Petersen
>> 
>> 
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