barrington interview

António Pedro Marques · 08 Oct 2014, 15:12 · from 2014-October.txt.gz

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From: entonio at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Ant=C3=B3nio_Pedro_Marques?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 16:12:44 +0100
Subject: (urth) barrington interview
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In that case I don't think either me or Lee disagree with you, and you've expressed it very well. We're not questioning the external universality of a mathematical statement, we're saying that its internals are human-specific (for one) and that in other cases what you think is a math statement may not be one. 

No dia 08/10/2014, ?s 15:55, "Norwood, Frederick Hudson" <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> escreveu:

> The question goes back to this: is there such a thing as the meaning of a statement which is independent of the symbols in which the statement is written. 
>  
> People in math and science would usually say yes, I think.  I know I often have the experience of groping for the words to express an idea that seems very clear to me, even before I find the right words.  Also, I can express exactly the same idea in many different ways. 
>  
> People in the arts often say no ? there is no such thing as meaning without symbols.  The medium is the message. 
>  
> What I mean by the universality of math is that there are universal truths (7*8 = 56 is one) which remain true independent of the symbols in which those truths are expressed.  If by ?I had one grunch but the eggplant over there.?  I mean ?7*8 = 56?, then the statement is true.  (The question of communicating with another mind is another question.  Understanding ideas in your own mind is hard enough, communicating those ideas to another mind is even harder.
>  
> Rick Norwood
>  
> From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Ant?nio Pedro Marques
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 10:29 AM
> To: The Urth Mailing List
> Subject: Re: (urth) barrington interview
>  
> Could you gentlemen pinpoint what you're labelling as the universality of math?
> 
> No dia 08/10/2014, ?s 15:01, "Norwood, Frederick Hudson" <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> escreveu:
> 
> This isn?t the place for this debate, since I have no doubt that Gene Wolfe accepts the fact that math is universal, but I will point out that your mode of debate (the suggestion that I don?t accept your assertion not because I disagree with it but because I find it ?disturbing?) is, as Mr. Spock would say, ?Highly illogical.?
>  
> Rick Norwood
>  
> From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Thomas Bitterman
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 9:36 AM
> To: The Urth Mailing List
> Subject: Re: (urth) barrington interview
>  
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've had this debate before and I know it can be disturbing to the purely science/mathematically
> minded. But math isn't really "universal". It  a system of calculation created by the human mind
> which is part of a primate brain evolved from more primitive mammalian ancestors.
>  
> Is there an argument against the universality of mathematics that isn't  just the Genetic Fallacy?
>  
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