[EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun

Ab de Vos · 29 Jan 2020, 13:06 · from 2020-January.txt.gz
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From: foxyab at casema.nl (Ab de Vos)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:06:58 +0100
Subject: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun
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Message-ID: <24df933e-158d-d830-b9bd-6f2b89ee8cd1 at casema.nl>

I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a 
christian misogynist. To compare Wolfe and Heinlein? in the ways they 
give expression to political ideas proves I think Wolfe the more subtle. 
I think Wolfe values self reliance but is aware of human limitation and 
evil. He is no ideologist as Heinlein might be considered though his 
ideas changed from left to right. Wolfe neither sanctifies the market 
nor the state and is critical of both. His books are not a direct and 
obtrusive mouthpiece for his faith.

Op 29-1-2020 om 13:50 schreef Norwood, Frederick Hudson:
>
> P.S. Sorry to have gone on so long about Heinlein. I mentioned 
> Heinlein only in the context of Wolfe?s The Land Across. I?m sure 
> there is a Heinlein thread for discussing Heinlein apart from Wolfe. 
> Let?s go back to Wolfe.
>
> Best,
>
> Rick Norwood
>
> *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of 
> *Norwood, Frederick Hudson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 7:47 AM
> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> *Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun
>
> I?ve read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for correcting 
> my memory ? that it was ?government service? rather than ?military 
> service?. Just from memory, I thought all government service, 
> including work on Pluto, was under the direction of the military. I?ll 
> remember to look out for that next time I read the book.
>
> I also enjoy Farnham?s Freehold, which I?ve read twice. The childbirth 
> scene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I?ve read. I do not agree 
> that his goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out 
> the kind of civilization we appreciate. The life on the Freehold 
> seemed, in many ways ideal. ?Free Kittens!?
>
> To what extent Heinlein?s Grand Old Man is unreliable, rather than a 
> way for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is a source of endless 
> debate, and both sides hold their own views pretty strongly. Clearly, 
> you hold your views strongly enough to accuse me of prejudice, even 
> though I said, very clearly, that I love Heinlein?s work.
>
> Best,
>
> Rick Norwood
>
> *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Dan'l 
> Danehy-Oakes
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM
> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net 
> <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
> *Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun
>
> I have a better question.
>
> Have /you/?read */Starship Troopers/*? Because you're making a false 
> statement about it. "Only people who have served in the military can 
> vote" - thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who 
> have performed /some sort of government service/?can vote. What is 
> also true is that /most /of this is /not/?military service - for 
> example, there's the guy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. 
> The idea here is that the vote has to be earned by showing that you 
> are willing to serve the people whom your vote will help govern.
>
> */Farnham's Freehold/*?is a failed novel. His goal was to show that 
> atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we 
> appreciate. As a side issue, he also wanted to show that race 
> prejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting whites in the slave 
> class. He screwed up by adding the cannibalism thing, making the whole 
> book so flawed that it can't serve its intended purposes.
>
> */Stranger/*? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is 
> strongly implied that Mike /does/?have physical love with males as 
> well as females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least 
> experimented with another man when he was young.
>
> You're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that 
> Heinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.
>
> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>
> /Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!/
>
> /--/T?a???ke Witk?
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson 
> <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu <mailto:NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Have you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in
>     the military can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it
>     has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.
>
>     I love Starship Troopers.? It?s one of my favorite books. But it
>     does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics
>     got ever more conservative. In Farnham?s Freehold the nice seeming
>     Black people turn out to? be cannibals. One area where he did
>     become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange
>     Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have
>     sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just
>     fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved and
>     admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.
>
>     Best,
>
>     Rick
>
>     *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net
>     <mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net>] *On Behalf Of *Dan'l
>     Danehy-Oakes
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM
>     *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net
>     <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>     *Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The
>     Long Sun
>
>     I think it is safe to say that Heinlein /never /"loved" or
>     advocated a military dictatorship.
>
>     Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>
>     /Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!/
>
>     /--/T?a???ke Witk?
>
>     On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson
>     <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu <mailto:NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>> wrote:
>
>         Other Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton
>         is Heinlein?s classic ?man who learns better? turned inside
>         out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein ?learned? in his
>         long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal,
>         (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and ?learns? to love a
>         military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator
>         serving as Heinlein?s ?grand old man?.
>
>         Rick Norwood
>
>         *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net
>         <mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net>] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Hoy
>         *Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM
>         *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net
>         <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>         *Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and
>         The Long Sun
>
>         Appreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry;
>         a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as
>         Christopher Nuttall might put it.
>
>         The interesting bit about the?conveyor belt roads of
>         Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and
>         a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper
>         Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in
>         TLA Chapter One "Now it seems to me that I must have been
>         asleep a long time before I got into bed" followed by several
>         "awakenings" throughout TLA.
>
>         Note that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a
>         potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a
>         struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the
>         parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice
>         of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31
>         Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in
>         a conversation at a cafe in TLA, "I don't trust that
>         conductor. Why is he so short?" to draw attention to Papa
>         Zenon's lack of stature.
>
>         Aramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a
>         lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of
>         cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities.
>         Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man.
>         There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and
>         I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.
>
>         - Stephen
>
>         On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson
>         <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu <mailto:NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>> wrote:
>
>             Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly
>             influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of
>             Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I?ve never heard anyone
>             else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel,
>             which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.
>
>             Best,
>
>             Rick
>
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