verbal suggestions

maa32 · 30 Mar 2002, 07:01 · from urth-v0203.mbox · original

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From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Subject: (urth) verbal suggestions
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:01:35 -0700
Message-ID: <urth-v0203-517 at digest.urth.net>
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Roy, there was one more thing I wanted to comment on about the wording of t=
he=20
dust quote.  It says: "there could be little point in creating us in one pl=
ace=20
and creating us again in another.  Besides, the dust of that whorl can=20
scacrely be identical to the dust of this one."  Now go down a little:
"I could not find Green there, or Blue, or the Whorl, or even the=20
constellations" But he can see the light of the red sun from Blue, right? =20
That's the big objection I keep hearing.  He can't see Blue in the heavens=20
because he's standing on it.  I don't know why he can't see Green - Hoof se=
es=20
Lune later on and calls it Green, "Green came up, bigger and brighter than =
we=20
ever see it on Blue.  Or want to, either." (356).  This makes it seem the=20
same, but then he says (2 chapters later) "Green was up above the mainmast,=20
and it seemed like if we put up the main top it would touch it.  Our Green =
is=20
not as big as theirs, but ours was plenty bright." (366) BUT we know that t=
he=20
moon was closer in Severian's time than it is in ours or Ushas, when the=20
gravity upheavals of the solar system pulled it out a little.  This is the=20
thing: if Green comes closer than the moon (which it supposedly does, at=20
conjunction) then it wouldn't seem smaller if it was big at all.  It would=20
have to be itty bitty, and therefore have less gravity than we have been=20
talking about.  I propose that it is the same size as the moon, but it has=20
moved back to the moons original orbit, but in an oddly unstable one which=20
decays and is then corrected, kind of like a fish tail when you lose contro=
l=20
of your car: it goes to the left and to the right until it is straight agai=
n,=20
at that middle distance between the farthest point and conjunction (note th=
at=20
conjunction is still not as close as the moon appears to Hoof).  It will=20
stabilize at the old moon's orbit eventually.

Read this passage again, as well:
Think of a whorl so old that even its seasons have worn out ... a whorl on=20
which they had jungles like yours once, with wide-leafed plants and many=20
flowers and huge trees.  It is too cold for that IN OUR TIME, and when the=20
people of that whorls speak of the present they intend five hundred years.=20
(384) RTTW=20
Or this one in transit: "everything else was changing anyhow except the sky=20
and the water" (346)  Only the color changes and the stars come out for tha=
t. =20
He also talks about his father's voice: as if the words were being spoken a=20
long time ago.
What does that mean: it is too cold for that in our time? why does he say w=
hen=20
the people of that world speak of the present they intend five hundred year=
s? =20
Isn't that an odd way of saying that the present is anytime in the last fiv=
e=20
hundred years? =20
Normally I would agree with a statement like  the first in a text negating =
the=20
dust being the same, but it is set up so that if you believe that we are=20
related to the Vanished People, then we must be in the same place BECAUSE=20
there is little point in creating the same people in two different places. =20
And there is the old suggestive trick of talking in negatives: no matter wh=
at=20
adjectives are included that temper or reverse a statement, if you want to=20
suggest something to someone you do it as follows:
When Jessica says "Don't Fight over me" in Dune, she means "Fight over me."=
 =20
The negative isn't there because of the way our mind processes statements. =
 If=20
I wanted to suggest something to you without telling you, or I wanted to fo=
ol=20
you, I would use a light denial like "scarcely" : the suggestion of that=20
statement is "the dust of that whorl CAN be identical to the dust of this=20
one." simply by the way it is worded.  I am aware this is opposite to its=20
meaning - are there any linguists or behavioral psychologists who can help =
me=20
support this claim - how linguistic suggestion works?

Silk isn't reliable - he tells Hoof that his ring is Seawracks, but earlier=
 he=20
makes a narrative point of saying that it can't be the same ring.  So which=
 is=20
it?  Can you believe blanket statements like that? (which aren't narrated=20
events but opinions he holds - how would Silk know if it was the same dust =
or=20
not?  That's the difference: you can trust his depiction of most events, bu=
t=20
you can't trust his opinions.)

I'm tired of writing about this, to tell you the truth.  I can see your poi=
nt.=20
(All of your points)  But I can see mine, too; and two or three statements =
in=20
the text can't overturn a hundred small clues that otherwise lead nowhere. =
 I=20
would rather ignore three or four statements which can easily be chalked up=
 to=20
the limited point of view of the narrators rather than ignoring all the lit=
tle=20
clues that Wolfe obviously planted (he he) in their testimonies.
In other words, Hoof has no idea if he is right or wrong when he calls Lune=20
Green - he does it unconsciously.  Silk doesn't know if the soil is the sam=
e -=20
he just makes assumptions based on the knowledge he has - but we can know m=
ore=20
than our fallible narrators, as a precursory glance at PEACE or Fifth Head =
of=20
Cerberus should emphasize.

Marc Aramini

--=20

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