Blues vs Greens

Andrew Bollen · 18 Apr 2002, 08:52 · from urth-v0204.mbox · original
This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.
From: "Andrew Bollen" <abollen at cybercityhk.com>
Subject: (urth) Blues vs Greens
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:52:39 +0800
Message-ID: <urth-v0204-657 at digest.urth.net>
X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0204/657.txt.shtml
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005E_01C1E6F9.72DA5140"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C1E6F9.72DA5140
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

After a few failed attempts to subscribe - Ha! Mainframe at last! Now to =
integrate ...

Blue and Green whorls had me thinking of Blue & Green factions in the =
Roman & Byzantine worlds. Originally the colors of different chariot =
racing teams in the circus, and by extension their fans, the "colors" =
became established as part of the state during the Gleichshaltungen of =
the later empire & early Byzantine times. Merged with the claques of the =
theater, the fan factions had the ceremonial function of praising the =
emperor during his public appearances.=20

Over hundreds of years, throughout the empire, Blues & Greens would =
periodically erupt into factional violence against each other, causing =
widespread death & destruction. Modern analyses generally eschew =
attempts to tag class, religious or other "objective" division onto this =
rivalry. If you were a Blue, you supported the noble Blues against the =
contemptible Greens, and vice versa. Not class warfare, but soccer =
hooliganism, on a large, empire-wide scale, from the Emperor on =
downwards.
"The population in every city has for a long been divided into two =
groups, the Greens and the Blues ... The members of each faction fight =
with their opponents not knowing for what reason they risk their lives, =
but realizing full well that even when they vanquish their opponents in =
brawls, they will be carted off to prison and that, after they have =
suffered the most extreme tortures, they will be killed. ... Neither =
human nor divine affairs matter to them compared to winning these =
fights. When some impious act is committed by one of them against God, =
or when the laws and the state are injured by their comrades or =
opponents, or perhaps when they lack the necessities of life, or their =
country is suffering dire need, they ignore all this as long as events =
turn out well for their own "faction." For this is what they call the =
bands of rioters. ... And this is how things are among the people of =
every city." (Procopius)

Blues vs Greens to me are emblematic of the human tendency to fom =
divisions, for the sake of forming divisions. One of the themes of =
TBOTLS and TBOTSS is, I think, the problem of achieving good governance =
in the face of this tendency. The inhumi are an externalization and a =
mirror of divisiveness, which makes them stronger & will lead to the =
extinction of humans on the whorls, unless a solution is found.

No idea whether Wolfe intended this kind of imagery or parallel, but =
it's nice to think about. Taking it a little further, apart from Blues =
and Greens, all through this period the chariot teams included Red and =
White. In a way which does not seem all together clear, White was a =
junior partner to Blue, and Red to Green. In the extension beyond teams =
to fan factions, Red and White therefore did not make an appearance as =
separate divisions.=20

But it's perhaps possible to see a reflection in Wolfe - White is the =
color of the Long Sun Whorl (it is described as "white" when viewd from =
Blue at some point), and Red is of course Urth. The pairing of =
Green/Urth and Whorl/Blue make some kind of sense to me: each of the =
former pair in desperate straits, each of the latter just needing some =
hard work to set right.

Finally: did Wolfe have a story years ago about an Army experiment gone =
wrong - a group of men isolated for a long period, splitting into two =
parties (Blue & Green?) and fighing each othee to the death?=20

- AB


-- 
------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C1E6F9.72DA5140
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3315.2870" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
After a few failed attempts to =
subscribe - Ha!=20
Mainframe at last! Now to integrate ...
 
Blue and Green whorls had me thinking =
of Blue &=20
Green factions in the Roman & Byzantine worlds. Originally the =
colors of=20
different chariot racing teams in the circus, and by extension their =
fans, the=20
"colors" became established as part of the state during the =
Gleichshaltungen of=20
the later empire & early Byzantine times. Merged with the claques of =
the=20
theater, the fan factions had the ceremonial function of praising =
the=20
emperor during his public appearances. 
 
Over hundreds of years, throughout the =
empire,=20
Blues & Greens would periodically erupt into factional violence =
against each=20
other, causing widespread death & destruction. Modern analyses=20
generally eschew attempts to tag class, religious or other =
"objective"=20
division onto this rivalry. If you =
were a Blue,=20
you supported the noble Blues against the contemptible Greens, and vice =
versa.=20
Not class warfare, but soccer hooliganism, on a large, empire-wide =
scale,=20
from the Emperor on downwards.

"The population in every city has for a long been divided into two =
groups,=20
the Greens and the Blues ... The members of each faction fight with =
their=20
opponents not knowing for what reason they risk their lives, but =
realizing full=20
well that even when they vanquish their opponents in brawls, they will =
be carted=20
off to prison and that, after they have suffered the most extreme =
tortures, they=20
will be killed. ... Neither human nor divine affairs matter to them =

compared to winning these fights. When some impious act is =
committed by one=20
of them against God, or when the laws and the state are injured by their =

comrades or opponents, or perhaps when they lack the necessities of =
life, or=20
their country is suffering dire need, they ignore all this as long as =
events=20
turn out well for their own "faction." For this is what they call the =
bands of=20
rioters. ... And this is how things are among the people of every =
city."=20
(Procopius)
Blues vs Greens to me are emblematic of =
the human=20
tendency to fom divisions, for the sake of forming divisions. One of=20
the themes of TBOTLS and TBOTSS is, I think, the problem of =
achieving good=20
governance in the face of this tendency. The inhumi are an =
externalization and a=20
mirror of divisiveness, which makes them stronger & will lead to=20
the extinction of humans on the whorls, unless a solution is=20
found.
 
No idea whether Wolfe intended this =
kind of imagery=20
or parallel, but it's nice to think about. Taking it a little further, =
apart=20
from Blues and Greens, all through this period the chariot teams =
included Red=20
and White. In a way which does not seem all together clear, White was a =
junior=20
partner to Blue, and Red to Green. In the extension beyond teams to fan=20
factions, Red and White therefore did not make an appearance as separate =

divisions. 
 
But it's perhaps possible to see a =
reflection in=20
Wolfe - White is the color of the Long Sun Whorl (it is described as =
"white"=20
when viewd from Blue at some point), and Red is of course Urth. The =
pairing of=20
Green/Urth and Whorl/Blue make some kind of sense to me: each of the=20
former pair in desperate straits, each of the latter just needing =
some hard=20
work to set right.
 
Finally: did Wolfe have a story years =
ago about an=20
Army experiment gone wrong - a group of men isolated for a long period,=20
splitting into two parties (Blue & Green?) and fighing each =
othee to=20
the death? 
 
- AB</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C1E6F9.72DA5140--
An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net