Time, Briah, 5HC, and other things

James Jordan · 19 Apr 2002, 22:03 · from urth-v0204.mbox · original
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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Time, Briah, 5HC, and other things
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 17:03:58 -0500
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At 02:55 PM 4/19/2002, Blattid wrote:

>Does anyone else beside me remember a comment in an early interview
>or something in which Wolfe suggested that these books may be taking
>place, not in our far future, but in our distant past?

Yep, though it's not "our" distant past. It was part of my loooong=20
interview, online at
http://www.op.net/~pduggan/gwjbj.html

And here is the relevant part, with a bit more for those who might not have=20
read all this before. (I've tried to clean it up a bit, but someday I have=20
to find the tapes and really clean it up.) -- Nutria

JJ: Is Briah our universe? Or is that a universe that resurrected saints=20
have set up in the world to come as part of the cities that they made?
GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are=20
repeating rather than something that we are.
JJ: I don't know that I have any other questions. It is a universe in which=20
angelic like beings actually have physical control over the universe of=20
stars and suns. I noticed that you had scarabs in the great machine in=20
Yesod. Severian goes through and sees that
GW: Oh yeah, yeah.
JJ: Scarabs push the suns. But that is a past world in your imagination.
GW: Yes, I was looking at what past universes might have been like really=20
and that is how...I began with the idea of what is going to happen to us if=20
we just keep going the way we are going and continue to live on the=20
continent of Earth without ever really going into the sea or going into=20
space and we just wait for the money to run out. The do nothing future and=20
thinking about what that would be. And then I got into the idea of=20
universal cycles. And decided that I would show that this might be a past=20
cycle. Some physicists at least think that the Big Bang is eventually going=20
to be followed by a Big Gnab in which the whole universe coalesces again=20
which will be followed by another Big Bang which is sort of like a=20
succession of universe as piston impulses in an internal combustion engine.=20
I certainly don't have any great emotional investment in that idea but I do=20
think it is a useful idea to play around with. Physics is coming nearer and=20
nearer and nearer mysticism. It has been doing this now for over 50 years=20
and it seems to me that is a fascinating thing that much too little=20
attention has been given to.
JJ: That poses something of a difficulty in terms of Christian eschatology=20
if there is to be a time and there is a resurrection where the world comes=20
to an end. Are you making an attempt to unify those two ideas or just to=20
play with the idea of a gnostic universe?
GW: I was toying with those ideas, I think, rather than trying to make=20
sense of them. Is our resurrection going to be in another universal cycle?=20
Well, yes, maybe it is. I don't know. We don't know what is really meant by=20
the world coming to an end, and God rolling up the sky like a carpet and=20
all that. It is all picturesque language. Figurative language to try to=20
give a general idea to an audience that would not be capable of=20
understanding the actuality. And I am not sure we are more capable of=20
understanding that actuality than they were. It is like the Genesis story.=20
I don't believe in a literal apple and I don't believe that literally=20
biting into the fruit had this effect but if you have to explain to a bunch=20
of primitives how men differ from animals and where men went wrong in=20
differing from animals, this is a pretty good way to do it.
JJ: Who is on trial in The Urth of the New Sun? Severian or Tzadkiel?=20
Because Tzadkiel tells him as the captain of the ship ______________mind.
GW: Severian is really on trial. Tzadkiel is pretending to be on trial as a=20
part of Severian's trial as I remember.
JJ: Tzadkiel means the righteousness of God.
GW: He is an angel of justice.
JJ: He passes judgement there. Apheta, that would mean opheta with an eta:=20
that is speechless. Was that your idea? Opheta with an epsilon could mean=20
forgiveness.
GW: No it is speechless. They talk by centering the sounds that you hear so=20
that you think that you are hearing a voice but they are actually=20
speechless. In a completely silent atmosphere they would be unable to speak.
JJ: Right.
GW: It was just a physical idea that I decided to play with and it has=20
certain philosophical reasons to it.
JJ: As if the universe of words is on one level and there is something=20
higher or above that.
GW: Well, the idea of selection. That we can make ourselves clear to=20
somebody else by selecting things to which they pay attention.
JJ: Okay. Oh... Severian's sexual relationship with her. What is the=20
purpose of that? He is a married man so at one level he is cheating on his=20
wife. He gets aboard ship and immediately takes a cabin near Gunnie and the=20
way you have it written he thinks to himself well it has been 10 years=20
since I have had anybody since Valaria. It seems to be one of his lapses in=20
virtue at that point.
GW: Yeah, I was not trying to show him as being that virtuous a man.
JJ: But here you have an angelic being takes him for the night. What is=20
going on there? Is that an idea of a celestial marriage between heaven and=20
earth?
GW: I think that the ideal of the higher being trying to raise the lower=20
being to a greater height perhaps. And also the attraction that the lower=20
being at least properly should feel toward the higher being.
JJ: So we could interpret that more symbolic than a moral level?
GW: Oh yeah, yeah. Well he is there to be morally judged but that does not=20
mean that everything... The fact that he is acquitted doesn't mean that=20
everything that he does or will do is right. If that is the criteria then=20
none of us are going to make it. None of us are without sin which I realize=20
is a platitude but it is also truth and it is very important truth. There=20
are..., if that is what we mean by good people then there are no good=20
people. What we have to mean by good people is people who are bad but are=20
trying at times to be good with mixed success because that is the closest=20
that we get.
JJ: The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells Severian=20
that he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such=20
Christlike language you can see why interpreters would say well Severian is=20
a Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply=20
for this universe?
GW: In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't mean=20
he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to that of=20
Christ. But really it is a different position because Christ really is both=20
God and man. Severian is not. Severian is a Christian rather than a Christ.=20
But he is been taken as the representative of humanity by whom humanity is=20
to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with the actual=20
human Jesus. He is or was is as fully human as you or I and we are saved by=20
Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy Him. I=20
think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was=20
tempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was tempted=20
to commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest of=20
us are. And the difference is that He did not sin.



--=20
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