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Out of the office (was Re: Digest from urth@urth.net)
Ian Lamont · 03 Sep 2002, 12:59
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From: Ian Lamont <ian_lamont at harvard.edu>
Subject: (urth) Out of the office (was Re: Digest from urth at urth.net)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:59:05 -0400
Message-ID: <urth-v0209-1646 at digest.urth.net>
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At 07:57 PM 8/25/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: StoneOx17 at aol.com
>Message-ID: <122.160adf50.2a9a3b34 at aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:52:52 EDT
>Subject: (urth) PEACE: the tale of the banshee
>To: urth at urth.net
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Reply-To: urth at urth.net
>
>Hello,
>
>Despite all the effort spent analyzing many of the embedded stories in Peace,
>there seems to have been relatively little written in this forum about the
>banshee story. I think that the participants in this story can be identified
>with some of the main characters in Peace, and that this story answers the
>question of "what went wrong?" with Wolfe's relationship to Margaret. Roy
>Lackey gave much of the same answer to this question already, without relying
>on the hints hidden in the banshee tale, in
>http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0104.html
>but the banshee story fills in a few more of the details.
>
>My identification in the story is:
>Den Weer is Jack,
>Margaret Lorn is Molly,
>Carl Lorn is Molly's father,
>Julian Smart is the banshee.
>
>Let's review the banshee story.
>
>Molly's father owns a big farm and Molly is his only child, so whoever
>marries her inherits the farm. Jack and Molly are in love, but Molly's
>father doesn't want Molly to marry Jack, "because Jack had nothing to bring
>to the wedding but his own two hands and a smile."
>
>In the "what went wrong?" speech, Weer says "I was intelligent and
>industrious; Margaret and I loved one another deeply." But when he comes
>back from college, the Depression has wiped out all of his fortune and made
>jobs very hard to find. How is he to make a living?
>
>One possibility would be for Weer to marry Margaret and move to the Lorn's
>farm. The Lorns likely still have their farm, since they wouldn't have had
>large bank loans, because the farm has been in their family for years and
>Carl Lorn is naturally frugal. Even though the income from the farm has been
>greatly reduced, they can at least grow enough food to feed themselves. It
>would be reasonable for Weer to help on the farm if he is to marry Margaret;
>she is the Lorn's only child, and so will inherit the farm. Later in the
>book, the farmer delivering potatoes to the factory says "When I was a boy,
>there wasn't anything anybody could have that was better'n a farm. If a
>doctor or a banker could marry a widow that had a good one, they'd stop what
>they was doing and work it." This farmer is ten or twenty years older than
>Weer, but taking this and the banshee story together, I conclude that when
>Weer was about to graduate, he and Margaret proposed that they get married
>and that Den move out to the farm and help work it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From the banshee story, we see that Carl Lorn didn't want Weer to marry
>Margaret. He disapproved of selling the egg, and he's tight with money
>("only Daddy never gets nothing at the store if he can find something else
>that'll do") so Weer has two strikes against him, being Olivia's nephew and
>being penniless. In the banshee story, Molly's father tells Jack he'd have
>to spend the whole night in the barn haunted by the banshee and not be thrown
>out; in Weer's real life, Carl probably told Weer that he wouldn't let
>Margaret marry him unless he could support her. So Weer has to take the job
>at the factory (the real-life parallel of the barn); unfortunately, the
>coldhouse prank kills somebody, and Julius blackmails him into staying at the
>factory until Julius dies. In this scenario, it doesn't even matter whether
>Margaret knows about the coldhouse prank. Weer can't marry her unless he
>finds another job which pays better, and he can't leave this job because of
>Julius' blackmail. Eventually, Margaret gets fed up with Weer's inaction and
>marries Mr. Price (whom we suspect, from his surname, has sufficient money).
>
>There are some interesting differences between the banshees in Peace and the
>banshees in Irish folklore. Looking on the web, it seems that in Irish
>folklore, the banshee is a woman sidhe who wails before somebody is going to
>die (and most important families have an associated banshee that predicts
>deaths in that family). In some versions of the legend, if you catch the
>banshee, she has to tell you who is going to die. However, she only
>foretells deaths, unlike Wolfe's banshee, who causes them. Note that Wolfe
>is playing off the folklore banshee: when his banshee is caught, she does
>tell Jack "who's to be born," although one might suspect that she's lying out
>of spite.
>
>Wolfe's banshees are ghosts (quite fittingly for Peace) who are "the spirits
>of midwives that have killed the baby because someone gave gold to them to do
>it that it might not inherit." This gives grounds for identifying the
>banshee as Julius: in
>http://urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/1043.txt.shtml,
>I speculated that Julius may have killed Mr. Tilly so as to inherit the carny
>business, which, while not an exact parallel, is certainly similar.
>
>Jack stays in the barn haunted by the banshee three nights. The first two
>times, the banshee forces him to speak the name of someone whom she later
>kills, first "the meanest man [Jack] can think of, a man that robbed
>everybody and never gave poor folk a penny," and second, "a real old lady
>that was goin' to die anyway." The third time, he defeats the banshee. If
>we identify the banshee with Julius, this is reminiscent of Weer's comment
>that he recalls uncle Julius clearly "only at three stages of his life." The
>first stage is when Julius tells the story of Mr. Tilly. The second stage is
>at aunt Olivia's funeral. And the last is when Julius is an old man and the
>president. This seems a little strange, because Den lived with Julius for
>quite a while, and this period doesn't seem included in either of these
>stages. However, if we take these three stages as corresponding to the three
>nights in the banshee story, then we are led to suspect that Julius killed
>both Mr. Tilly and Olivia for their inheritances. We know (since Wolfe has
>confirmed it) that it was Peacock who actually ran Olivia over in his car,
>but there are at least two reasons to suspect that Peacock might have
>conspired with Julius: first, Julius Smart and Professor Peacock were good
>friends, and second, there's the mysterious letter from Peacock to Julius
>that Weer is unable to read.
>
>Is there any more evidence for this correspondence between the banshee story
>and Weer's life? In the other stories in Peace that we know have parallels
>(the princess and her suitors, and the marid), there is a correspondence
>hidden in the characters' names. The link from Molly to Mary to Margaret
>seems obvious, but I don't see how to get from Jack to Den. Any ideas?
>
>- Stone Ox
>
>--
I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you
after I return on Labor Day.
Thanks,
Ian Lamont
Assistant Web Site Manager
Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office
124 Mount Auburn Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel: (617) 495-8183
Fax: (617) 495-0521
--
--=====================_548518==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<x-html>At 07:57 PM 8/25/02 -0400, you wrote:
From:
StoneOx17 at aol.com
Message-ID: <122.160adf50.2a9a3b34 at aol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:52:52 EDT
Subject: (urth) PEACE: the tale of the banshee
To: urth at urth.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Reply-To: urth at urth.net
Hello,
Despite all the effort spent analyzing many of the embedded stories
in Peace,
there seems to have been relatively little written in this forum
about the
banshee story. I think that the participants in this story can
be identified
with some of the main characters in Peace, and that this story
answers the
question of "what went wrong?" with Wolfe's relationship
to Margaret. Roy
Lackey gave much of the same answer to this question already,
without relying
on the hints hidden in the banshee tale, in
http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0104.html
but the banshee story fills in a few more of the details.
My identification in the story is:
Den Weer is Jack,
Margaret Lorn is Molly,
Carl Lorn is Molly's father,
Julian Smart is the banshee.
Let's review the banshee story.
Molly's father owns a big farm and Molly is his only child, so
whoever
marries her inherits the farm. Jack and Molly are in love, but
Molly's
father doesn't want Molly to marry Jack, "because Jack had
nothing to bring
to the wedding but his own two hands and a smile."
In the "what went wrong?" speech, Weer says "I was
intelligent and
industrious; Margaret and I loved one another deeply."
But when he comes
back from college, the Depression has wiped out all of his fortune
and made
jobs very hard to find. How is he to make a living?
One possibility would be for Weer to marry Margaret and move to the
Lorn's
farm. The Lorns likely still have their farm, since they
wouldn't have had
large bank loans, because the farm has been in their family for
years and
Carl Lorn is naturally frugal. Even though the income from the farm
has been
greatly reduced, they can at least grow enough food to feed
themselves. It
would be reasonable for Weer to help on the farm if he is to marry
Margaret;
she is the Lorn's only child, and so will inherit the farm. Later in
the
book, the farmer delivering potatoes to the factory says "When
I was a boy,
there wasn't anything anybody could have that was better'n a
farm. If a
doctor or a banker could marry a widow that had a good one, they'd
stop what
they was doing and work it." This farmer is ten or twenty
years older than
Weer, but taking this and the banshee story together, I conclude
that when
Weer was about to graduate, he and Margaret proposed that they get
married
and that Den move out to the farm and help work
it.
&nb
&nb
&nb
&nb
From the banshee story, we see that Carl Lorn didn't want Weer to
marry
Margaret. He disapproved of selling the egg, and he's tight
with money
("only Daddy never gets nothing at the store if he can find
something else
that'll do") so Weer has two strikes against him, being
Olivia's nephew and
being penniless. In the banshee story, Molly's father tells
Jack he'd have
to spend the whole night in the barn haunted by the banshee and not
be thrown
out; in Weer's real life, Carl probably told Weer that he wouldn't
let
Margaret marry him unless he could support her. So Weer has to
take the job
at the factory (the real-life parallel of the barn); unfortunately,
the
coldhouse prank kills somebody, and Julius blackmails him into
staying at the
factory until Julius dies. In this scenario, it doesn't even
matter whether
Margaret knows about the coldhouse prank. Weer can't marry her
unless he
finds another job which pays better, and he can't leave this job
because of
Julius' blackmail. Eventually, Margaret gets fed up with
Weer's inaction and
marries Mr. Price (whom we suspect, from his surname, has sufficient
money).
There are some interesting differences between the banshees in Peace
and the
banshees in Irish folklore. Looking on the web, it seems that
in Irish
folklore, the banshee is a woman sidhe who wails before somebody is
going to
die (and most important families have an associated banshee that
predicts
deaths in that family). In some versions of the legend, if you
catch the
banshee, she has to tell you who is going to die. However, she
only
foretells deaths, unlike Wolfe's banshee, who causes them.
Note that Wolfe
is playing off the folklore banshee: when his banshee is caught, she
does
tell Jack "who's to be born," although one might suspect
that she's lying out
of spite.
Wolfe's banshees are ghosts (quite fittingly for Peace) who are
"the spirits
of midwives that have killed the baby because someone gave gold to
them to do
it that it might not inherit." This gives grounds for
identifying the
banshee as Julius: in
http://urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/1043.txt.shtml,
I speculated that Julius may have killed Mr. Tilly so as to inherit
the carny
business, which, while not an exact parallel, is certainly
similar.
Jack stays in the barn haunted by the banshee three nights.
The first two
times, the banshee forces him to speak the name of someone whom she
later
kills, first "the meanest man [Jack] can think of, a man that
robbed
everybody and never gave poor folk a penny," and second,
"a real old lady
that was goin' to die anyway." The third time, he defeats
the banshee. If
we identify the banshee with Julius, this is reminiscent of Weer's
comment
that he recalls uncle Julius clearly "only at three stages of
his life." The
first stage is when Julius tells the story of Mr. Tilly. The
second stage is
at aunt Olivia's funeral. And the last is when Julius is an
old man and the
president. This seems a little strange, because Den lived with
Julius for
quite a while, and this period doesn't seem included in either of
these
stages. However, if we take these three stages as
corresponding to the three
nights in the banshee story, then we are led to suspect that Julius
killed
both Mr. Tilly and Olivia for their inheritances. We know
(since Wolfe has
confirmed it) that it was Peacock who actually ran Olivia over in
his car,
but there are at least two reasons to suspect that Peacock might
have
conspired with Julius: first, Julius Smart and Professor Peacock
were good
friends, and second, there's the mysterious letter from Peacock to
Julius
that Weer is unable to read.
Is there any more evidence for this correspondence between the
banshee story
and Weer's life? In the other stories in Peace that we know
have parallels
(the princess and her suitors, and the marid), there is a
correspondence
hidden in the characters' names. The link from Molly to Mary
to Margaret
seems obvious, but I don't see how to get from Jack to Den.
Any ideas?
- Stone Ox
--
http://www.urth.net/
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</x-html>
<html>
I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get
back to you after I return on Labor Day.
Thanks,
Ian Lamont
Assistant Web Site Manager
Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office
124 Mount Auburn Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel: (617) 495-8183
Fax: (617) 495-0521</html>
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