Out of the office (was Re: Digest from urth@urth.net)

Ian Lamont · 03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · from urth-v0209.mbox · original
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From: Ian Lamont <ian_lamont at harvard.edu>
Subject: (urth) Out of the office (was Re: Digest from  urth at urth.net)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:59:09 -0400
Message-ID: <urth-v0209-1649 at digest.urth.net>
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At 07:59 PM 8/29/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Message-ID: <000801c24ef0$d6dfbd60$ddf0c518@robertbo>
>From: "Robert Borski" <rborski at charter.net>
>To: <urth at urth.net>
>Subject: Re: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:12:56 -0500
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Reply-To: urth at urth.net
>
> > >Crush, have you met Robert Borski? You're both gifted with imagination
> > plus,
> > >and should have much to discuss.
> > >-alga
>
> > I've never met Robert Borski, although I enjoyed his recent Peace article.
>I
> > haven't to my knowledge met anyone on this list, although it is my desire
>to
> > go to WorldCon one day and put a few faces to the names here.
>
>(Extending a right hand blithely across the aether.) How do you do, Crush!
>
>I've never met anyone on the list either, although Nigel Price and I talked
>about getting together last spring; alas, while he was in the American
>Midwest, I was in Central Europe. That being said, however, I fear you've
>misread alga's comments, which were intended not as a suggestion that you
>and I actually meet, but that your work, like mine, is neither valid nor
>substantive, but rather falls into the realm of "fan fiction." Like me,
>you've apparently been "swimming with undines," thus your severe
>intellectual anoxia. Thank the stars she didn't call you my "partner in
>flakiness," like she did Prion (aka Sean Whalen), who promptly left the list
>after the tirade she leveled against him. And heaven forbid your work ever
>find acceptance elsewhere; I fear the six essays I wrote on Wolfe that have
>been published by The New York Review of Science Fiction have forever
>sullied its reputation (obviously Ms. Turner's essays on John Crowley were
>accepted by an editorial cadre in much more command of its critical
>faculties). In other words expect a certain amount of ridicule, scorn, and
>derision to your Long Sun exegeses by what is, thankfully, not a large
>contingent on the list; if you're extremely unlucky, however, as I've been,
>expect a fair amount of shrillness from you-know-who.
>
>Personally, I applaud your efforts. I don't agree with many of your
>conclusions, but rather than take a cheap shot at what has obviously been a
>labor of love, with a fair amount of scholarship  ("Those who have original
>thoughts, post; those who don't, carp"), I thought I'd ask you a few
>questions about your Hyacinth essay. According to you she's a chem. So does
>this mean that she fabricated the story about her father being a head clerk
>at the Juzgado? (Newt by my reckoning.) And again, is she lying (or
>implanted with false memories) when she tells Auk that her father is a
>"pig's arse"? And who is the woman described as her dead mother that
>Hyacinth sees at Mainframe? Nettle seems to know her (I've theorized
>elsewhere she's Lime), but wouldn't she have to be a chem--as must be her
>father? Simply put, are there really that many chems running around outside
>the military and the religious orders, and are they as prone and subject to
>toxic parenting as your average bios? Since you're speculating about someone
>whose life history does not end with SHORT SUN, you also need to read
>Wolfe's followup series because there's an event in there that makes your
>theory even lesss tenable. I won't spoil it for you; suffice it to say I
>don't think rust is the causitive agent.
>
>Robert Borski
>
>
>
>--
>From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at HotPOP.com>
>To: <urth at urth.net>
>Subject: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal
>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:05:38 -0500
>Message-ID: <PLEFLJEIBGPANKPDCAMPAEKECEAA.crushtv at HotPOP.com>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Reply-To: urth at urth.net
>
>Regarding essays at http://www.visualclick.com/~jwynn/GeneWolfe/LongSun/
>
>Robert Borski  said:
>I fear you've misread alga's comments, which were intended not as a
>suggestion that you and I actually meet, but that your work, like mine, is
>neither valid nor substantive...In other words expect a certain amount of
>ridicule, scorn, and derision to your Long Sun exegeses...
>
>My response:
>Unfortunately, I'm not so harassed by fraternal greetings and compliments
>that I can afford to exegete them when they come my way. I'll presume until
>textually proven otherwise that by "imagination plus" Alga meant merely
>"...plus imagination" rather than "...plus something-else-not-so-wonderful."
>As for receiving derision, I should HOPE to converse with someone who feels
>so strongly about the Long Sun series - that's why I published the essays on
>a website. So deride away! It's up to the derider however to engage me
>enough to respond. I purpose that no shots will be "cheap", I'll do all I
>can to see that they are hard won.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Robert Borski  said
>I thought I'd ask you a few questions about your Hyacinth essay.
>
>My response:
>I'm working on a response to your questions, but I can't finish until can
>check my sources. Still I've received a couple emails offline on the
>chem-Hyacinth theory that follow the same tack, and I'd like to respond to
>that "tack" first.
>
>First if people are responding off-list because they feel more comfortable
>for some reason, yet *really* want to discuss some point, that's fine. But
>if someone responds off-list to keep from *humiliating* me, their concern is
>misdirected. The purpose of this list, I would guess, is to exchange
>opinions.
>
>Second, no matter WHAT one believes about Hyacinth, her impressive bosom is
>bursting with lies and slight-of-hands about her *true* nature. As I say in
>"Thelxepeia's Mirrors," the Hyacinth citation is not really finished and
>won't be until after I re-read the books. I currently ONLY cite the clues
>that she IS a chem rather than explain the (IMO) mis-directions that she is
>NOT a chem. My conviction currently rests only on affirmative proofs. That's
>only half the ballgame, I know.
>
>Consequently,  while I think I allay certain general concerns like those Mr.
>Borski is asking. I can't really address specific problems like "if Hyacinth
>is a chem, how does she cry? or "then why is she CLAIM to be a junkie?" or
>"why does she stuff her face with nectarines?"
>
>At the end of Silk's discussion with Horn on the airship, Silk says of his
>reasons for trying to kill himself, "Isn't it obvious [after all I've told
>you]?" Well it isn't "obvious." It IS (to me at this point), however,
>inexorable. Still, I welcome all challenges to anything I've published on my
>site, including this. Just understand that I can't answer
>everything.....yet.
>
>Third, as to my need to read the Short Sun, I guess I will have to read this
>one if only to have the credentials to discuss Hyacinth. But I've paid
>enough attention to the Urth list discussion to know she's dies and there is
>some ambiguity as to how. This is not a spoiler for me because:
>Since Silk and Hyacinth are Apollo and Hyacinthus -- and there is more
>reason than just her name to suggest they are - it is necessary that Silk
>will directly cause her death - the only question is how.
>
>I'm inclined to disbelieve, though obviously without evidence, that the
>manner of her death insists that she's bio since every person whose brought
>this up, felt the need to supply other (less persuasive?) proofs. Unless
>there is blood all over the walls, it's hard to imagine that it will present
>in more difficult puzzle than why does she produce snot when she cries and
>why is her breath warm.
>
>Does the event in question take place in "On Blue's Waters?" I do have that
>one already.
>
>Curiously, I kind of expected my other (I thought) controversial theory,
>that Incus is a woman, to provoke at least as many challenges as Hyacinth's.
>I feel much on much better ground to defend it. Then again, perhaps I *have*
>defended it better since no one has yet offered a detailed challenge on
>that.
>
>A sole-proprietor in flakiness,
>-- Crush
>
>
>
>
>
>--
I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you 
after I return on Labor Day.

Thanks,

Ian Lamont
Assistant Web Site Manager
Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office
124 Mount Auburn Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel: (617) 495-8183
Fax: (617) 495-0521

-- 
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<x-html>At 07:59 PM 8/29/02 -0400, you wrote:
Message-ID:
<000801c24ef0$d6dfbd60$ddf0c518@robertbo>
From: "Robert Borski" <rborski at charter.net>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:12:56 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
<x-tab>        </x-tab>charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Reply-To: urth at urth.net

> >Crush, have you met Robert Borski? You're both gifted with
imagination
> plus,
> >and should have much to discuss.
> >-alga

> I've never met Robert Borski, although I enjoyed his recent
Peace article.
I
> haven't to my knowledge met anyone on this list, although it is
my desire
to
> go to WorldCon one day and put a few faces to the names
here.

(Extending a right hand blithely across the aether.) How do you do,
Crush!

I've never met anyone on the list either, although Nigel Price and I
talked
about getting together last spring; alas, while he was in the
American
Midwest, I was in Central Europe. That being said, however, I fear
you've
misread alga's comments, which were intended not as a suggestion
that you
and I actually meet, but that your work, like mine, is neither valid
nor
substantive, but rather falls into the realm of "fan
fiction." Like me,
you've apparently been "swimming with undines," thus your
severe
intellectual anoxia. Thank the stars she didn't call you my
"partner in
flakiness," like she did Prion (aka Sean Whalen), who promptly
left the list
after the tirade she leveled against him. And heaven forbid your
work ever
find acceptance elsewhere; I fear the six essays I wrote on Wolfe
that have
been published by The New York Review of Science Fiction have
forever
sullied its reputation (obviously Ms. Turner's essays on John
Crowley were
accepted by an editorial cadre in much more command of its
critical
faculties). In other words expect a certain amount of ridicule,
scorn, and
derision to your Long Sun exegeses by what is, thankfully, not a
large
contingent on the list; if you're extremely unlucky, however, as
I've been,
expect a fair amount of shrillness from you-know-who.

Personally, I applaud your efforts. I don't agree with many of
your
conclusions, but rather than take a cheap shot at what has obviously
been a
labor of love, with a fair amount of scholarship  ("Those
who have original
thoughts, post; those who don't, carp"), I thought I'd ask you
a few
questions about your Hyacinth essay. According to you she's a chem.
So does
this mean that she fabricated the story about her father being a
head clerk
at the Juzgado? (Newt by my reckoning.) And again, is she lying
(or
implanted with false memories) when she tells Auk that her father is
a
"pig's arse"? And who is the woman described as her dead
mother that
Hyacinth sees at Mainframe? Nettle seems to know her (I've
theorized
elsewhere she's Lime), but wouldn't she have to be a chem--as must
be her
father? Simply put, are there really that many chems running around
outside
the military and the religious orders, and are they as prone and
subject to
toxic parenting as your average bios? Since you're speculating about
someone
whose life history does not end with SHORT SUN, you also need to
read
Wolfe's followup series because there's an event in there that makes
your
theory even lesss tenable. I won't spoil it for you; suffice it to
say I
don't think rust is the causitive agent.

Robert Borski



-- 
http://www.urth.net/
To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to
urth-request at urth.net
From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at HotPOP.com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Subject: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:05:38 -0500
Message-ID:
<PLEFLJEIBGPANKPDCAMPAEKECEAA.crushtv at HotPOP.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
<x-tab>        </x-tab>charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Reply-To: urth at urth.net

Regarding essays at
http://www.visualclick.com/~jwynn/GeneWolfe/LongSun/

Robert Borski  said:
I fear you've misread alga's comments, which were intended not as
a
suggestion that you and I actually meet, but that your work, like
mine, is
neither valid nor substantive...In other words expect a certain
amount of
ridicule, scorn, and derision to your Long Sun exegeses...

My response:
Unfortunately, I'm not so harassed by fraternal greetings and
compliments
that I can afford to exegete them when they come my way. I'll
presume until
textually proven otherwise that by "imagination plus" Alga
meant merely
"...plus imagination" rather than "...plus
something-else-not-so-wonderful."
As for receiving derision, I should HOPE to converse with someone
who feels
so strongly about the Long Sun series - that's why I published the
essays on
a website. So deride away! It's up to the derider however to engage
me
enough to respond. I purpose that no shots will be
"cheap", I'll do all I
can to see that they are hard won.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Borski  said
I thought I'd ask you a few questions about your Hyacinth
essay.

My response:
I'm working on a response to your questions, but I can't finish
until can
check my sources. Still I've received a couple emails offline on
the
chem-Hyacinth theory that follow the same tack, and I'd like to
respond to
that "tack" first.

First if people are responding off-list because they feel more
comfortable
for some reason, yet *really* want to discuss some point, that's
fine. But
if someone responds off-list to keep from *humiliating* me, their
concern is
misdirected. The purpose of this list, I would guess, is to
exchange
opinions.

Second, no matter WHAT one believes about Hyacinth, her impressive
bosom is
bursting with lies and slight-of-hands about her *true* nature. As I
say in
"Thelxepeia's Mirrors," the Hyacinth citation is not
really finished and
won't be until after I re-read the books. I currently ONLY cite the
clues
that she IS a chem rather than explain the (IMO) mis-directions that
she is
NOT a chem. My conviction currently rests only on affirmative
proofs. That's
only half the ballgame, I know.

Consequently,  while I think I allay certain general concerns
like those Mr.
Borski is asking. I can't really address specific problems like
"if Hyacinth
is a chem, how does she cry? or "then why is she CLAIM to be a
junkie?" or
"why does she stuff her face with nectarines?"

At the end of Silk's discussion with Horn on the airship, Silk says
of his
reasons for trying to kill himself, "Isn't it obvious [after
all I've told
you]?" Well it isn't "obvious." It IS (to me at this
point), however,
inexorable. Still, I welcome all challenges to anything I've
published on my
site, including this. Just understand that I can't answer
everything.....yet.

Third, as to my need to read the Short Sun, I guess I will have to
read this
one if only to have the credentials to discuss Hyacinth. But I've
paid
enough attention to the Urth list discussion to know she's dies and
there is
some ambiguity as to how. This is not a spoiler for me
because:
Since Silk and Hyacinth are Apollo and Hyacinthus -- and there is
more
reason than just her name to suggest they are - it is necessary that
Silk
will directly cause her death - the only question is how.

I'm inclined to disbelieve, though obviously without evidence, that
the
manner of her death insists that she's bio since every person whose
brought
this up, felt the need to supply other (less persuasive?) proofs.
Unless
there is blood all over the walls, it's hard to imagine that it will
present
in more difficult puzzle than why does she produce snot when she
cries and
why is her breath warm.

Does the event in question take place in "On Blue's
Waters?" I do have that
one already.

Curiously, I kind of expected my other (I thought) controversial
theory,
that Incus is a woman, to provoke at least as many challenges as
Hyacinth's.
I feel much on much better ground to defend it. Then again, perhaps
I *have*
defended it better since no one has yet offered a detailed challenge
on
that.

A sole-proprietor in flakiness,
-- Crush





-- 
http://www.urth.net/
To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to
urth-request at urth.net
</x-html>
<html>
I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get
back to you after I return on Labor Day.

Thanks,

Ian Lamont
Assistant Web Site Manager
Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office
124 Mount Auburn Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel: (617) 495-8183
Fax: (617) 495-0521</html>

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