Quetzal On Urth? (responding to Charles' arguments)

Charles Reed · 26 Nov 2002, 22:10 · from urth-v0211.mbox · original
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From: "Charles Reed" <cmreed at link.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth? (responding to Charles' arguments)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:10:49 -0600
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I like this back-and-forth stuff.  It helps me to think better.  This is=20
kind-of long, so let's go:

James Wynn wrote:

>Ok. Two points...no...three.
>
>First, when did we out-law ranting on this list?
> =20
>

Point taken.  From now on I'll feel free to rant away. :-)

>Second, I assert that my arguments -- that Quetzal was on Urth and
>manipulated Typhon to start the Whorl project -- is textually supported.
>Quetzal is *clearly* (clear to me anyway) identifying himself with the cob=
ra
>in the A-man/Wo-man story (the story is in the Chrasmological Writings btw=
).
>He could not have enticed A-man and Wo-man into his tree from Green (as far
>as I can see). Therefore he had to be on Urth. This is textual evidence.
>

Well, I don't see it that way, though I'll grant that this is a matter=20
of interpretation.  Quetzal identifies himself with the cobra in the=20
sense that he's trying to lure A-man and Wo-man from the garden (the=20
Whorl) up into his tree (Green) by doing everything possible to carry=20
out the Plan of Pas.  My interpretation differs from yours in that you=20
see Urth, rather than the Whorl, as "the garden."  Each interpretation's=20
validity depends on the point of view.  Yours is valid if Quetzal was on=20
Urth, which I do not believe him to have been.


>I've no reason to believe (yet) there was a colony of inhumi on Urth or any
>more than one. I have thematic reasons to doubt there was.
>
>Furthermore, if, as Wolfe said, Typhon did not know about the inhumi, then
>neither he nor his scientists had ever been to Green. This seems reasonable
>from the way the Plan played out. So he sent this massive project to a star
>system without reconnaissance - no recon by mirrors nor by the sort of ship
>Severian rode in. That's faith, man. What reason did he have to believe
>there were inhabitable planets there? My explanation is that he was assured
>that there were hospitable planets by Quetzal. That's not textual evidence,
>but it's not extra-textual either. It's just making sense of the narrative.
>Perfectly fair.
>

Yes, it's fair, but I don't see what other supporting evidence there is.=20
 I also think there are other explanations that make far more sense.=20
 Two of which are as follows:

(1)  There are apparently lots of "aliens" on Urth in Severian's time=20
and I would presume that there were lots of aliens on Urth during=20
Typhon's time as well, and perhaps even other humans from other systems=20
that aren't under the "space-travel quarantine" that Urth is under.=20
 Typhon no doubt would have ways of gathering information he wanted=20
(such as star charts of other inhabitable systems) from such=20
interstellar travelers.  No need at all for Quetzal to show up on Urth.

(2)  There is already a tenuous connection between Blue and Urth (as=20
different planets) in the form of Abaia, Scylla, and the other giant=20
(and not so giant) underwater creatures.  In SotT, Severian remarks that=20
Abaia was "carried [to Urth] from the farther shores of the universe in=20
anteglacial days."  And in RttW, the Greater Scylla of Urth teaches=20
Horn/Silk how to communicate with the Mother of Blue.  Some might see=20
this as evidence that Urth=3DBlue, but I don't, due to (among other=20
things) the comment about Abaia coming to Urth from somewhere else.=20
 That is, I see it as evidence that the Greater Scylla's race was=20
brought to Urth from another planet -- perhaps from Blue but not=20
necessarily.  This means that Typhon could have learned of the=20
Blue/Green system from these sea creatures.  I think there are other=20
implications here too, which I haven't really thought out very well,=20
regarding Typhon's relationship with these beings.  In any case, this is=20
another explanation (supportable strictly by  the text) in which there=20
is no need to have Quetzal show up on Urth.

Explanation #1 has the advantage of being the easiest and the most=20
logical.  It has the disadvantage of being a little boring.

Explanation #2 has the advantage of being quite provocative in its=20
implications without calling for the need for something extremely=20
far-fetched, such as Quetzal being on Urth.  It has disadvantage of not=20
adhering to Occam's Razor, but I don't consider that such a severe=20
disadvantage.

Of course, the two explanations could be combined.  Typhon could have=20
learned from "other aliens" where the giant sea creatures originally=20
came from, and sent his starcrosser to that place once he confirmed its=20
habitability.


>Third, I wish to defend the tact of analyzing literature from extra-textual
>clues. You have pointed out that we frequently base theories on Wolfe's
>works on extra-textual clues (Catholicism, etc.).  Frequently, entire
>theories are dispensed with by saying "Wolfe wouldn't do that."=20
>

I wasn't attacking such tactics; I was merely stating that my first=20
preference is to argue from the text itself.  It feels like "cheating"=20
to do otherwise.

But as far as basing/dispensing theories on the "Wolfe wouldn't do that"=20
argument -- I think this is extremely dangerous.  Just this week, there=20
was an exchange in which Don Doggett stated, "I cannot believe that=20
Wolfe would have his main character commit incest, knowingly or=20
unknowingly, and especially without any good reason" and outlined a=20
theory for why he didn't think Dorcas was Severian's grandmother.  Marc=20
Aramani then replied, in what I thought was really good argument which=20
summarized the various sexual relationships in the NS books, that it was=20
in fact essential to his interpretation that Dorcas be Severian's=20
grandmother.  "Wolfe wouldn't do that" is simply a bad way to argue a point.

Wolfe is a Roman Catholic, and that can be used to a certain degree --=20
but ONLY to a certain degree -- in interpreting what his characters=20
would or would not do.


>That is not unreasonable as far as that goes. Furthermore...
>
>--- If an extra-textual source is found to so closely relate to the
>narrative that it could not coincidental,
>--- And if a character is found **standing in the very place of a entity of
>that extra-textual narrative*,
>--- And if someone says, "Even though I wouldn't have said this otherwise,
>this character is clearly a type of this extra-textual entity...
>
>Well that is NOT reading off the text. That's reading FROM the text.
>


Consider this.  Severian is a Christian figure.  He died and was brought=20
back to life.  He turned water into wine.  He healed the sick with a=20
touch of his hand.  He raised the dead.  These are definitely=20
non-superficial similarities.  But was Severian's story a retelling of=20
the Christ story?  No.  Clearly no.  Severian is not Christ.  Just=20
because there are similarities -- even non-superficial similarities --=20
does not meant that Wolfe is writing an allegory in which everything=20
stands for something else in an already-told story. =20


>FOR EXAMPLE, does Silk see events from the life of Jesus Christ during his
>enlightenment? I'd say yes. I think most people would say yes. But the only
>way you would know that is if you were *extra-textually* familiar with the
>events of the life of Christ.
>


You're correct, and that's why strict "formalism" ultimately fails in=20
interpreting literature.  It is, however, the starting point for=20
interpreting literature.


>Based (partially) on this, many say that the
>Outsider is God. Yet, Jesus Christ is NOT mentioned in the text.
>


It  is, however, stated in the "Gods, Persons, and Animals Mentioned in=20
the Text" of EXODUS that the Outsider is the "god of gods."


>If someone
>were not familiar with the details of the life of Christ, and not aware th=
at
>Wolfe is a Christian, it would NOT be self-evident to that person that Jes=
us
>is referred to.
>

That's true, and it's also not necessary to the understanding of the=20
story.  There are images seen in the Silk's enlightenment that might not=20
be understood by a Christian-ignorant person.  Heck, there are scenes of=20
his enlightenment that I don't necessarily understand.  That's all=20
right, though.  Allusion *enhances* the work and provides the reader=20
with perhaps a greater depth of understanding, but if the reader MUST=20
understand the allusions in order to understand the story, then the=20
story isn't really a story -- it's an allegory.  That's not what the=20
NS/LS/SS books are, though.  At least, that's not how I see them.  Even=20
if a person knew absolutely nothing about the life of Jesus, it would=20
still be (grasping for adverbs) munificently clear FROM THE TEXT that=20
Silk views the Outsider as the only god worthy of being worshiped, and=20
that's the important part.

>Yet, it still would be TEXTUALLY self-evident. There are
>other equally obvious references to someone that arrives at the text with
>certain background knowledge. To those that do not have that background
>knowledge, the most likely initial response will be, "Wolfe is simply not
>that clever. No one is that clever."  This is the thought that goes through
>my mind all the time when reading the LS/SS cycle.
>
>And that's what I've got to say about that.
>
>Still ranting,
>Crush
>


Here's the problem that I have with some of your ideas.  You seem to=20
think that just because the LS/SS story bears some non-superficial=20
resemblance to certain Greek myths, the entire LS/SS story has to be a=20
strict re-telling of those myths.  I think that's false.  The myths can=20
enhance, illuminate, and even explicate the story to some degree but you=20
cannot insist that the story has to be viewed through the lens of the=20
myths.  To do so, I think, is to sell the story short  -- to rob it of=20
its natural power and turn it into a game in which you wind up=20
interpreting the story to fit the myth, rather than working to interpret=20
the story on its on grounds first and then seeing how the myth might=20
further illuminate it. =20


Well.  That's it for now.  Keep ranting, Crush.  I'm looking forward to=20
your response, because even if I don't agree you, you make me think.

Charles



--=20
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