Urth Net
Hello, and a rehash of kimleesoong
J. Schultz · 30 Apr 1998, 18:08
· from urth-v0010.mbox · original
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From: "J. Schultz" <jschultz at wcnet.org> Subject: (urth) Hello, and a rehash of kimleesoong Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:08:04 Message-ID: <urth-v0010-0031 at digest.urth.net> X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0010/0031.shtml MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD7462.EB64A2E0" [Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD7462.EB64A2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm extremly excited to join the group and this is my first posting. = It's always a great thrill to see people discussing a subject you really = enjoy and I feel a sort of homecoming and kindred to you all, even = though I hardly know you. Forgive me for rehashing old subjects, but I have been reading the = recent archives and feel I can add to your discussion on the subject of = Jonas, kimleesoong, and the age of the planet Urth. First I will touch on my ideas of how far in the future Urth is. It has = always been my contention that as Ushas had replaced Urth after the = cataclysm, Urth had replaced Earth after some terreble cataclysm befell = it. As in a nuclear war, a few survivors would exist in a sort of dark = age untill a time where civilization could be rebuilt. While their = traditions would have echoes of something familliar the traditions would = be shaped by their new surroundings. Before the cataclysm Earth had = definitly achieved starship travle and probably became a stellar empire. = After the cataclysm this empire became fragmented. The exultants, = (again, more of a feeling than any hard fact in the book) headed by = Typhon, returned to Earth (now Urth) in an attempt to return the empire = to its final glory bringing with them all manner of machines and relics = from the early days of super technology. The exultants are way too = similar to humans to be any sort of alien race. I see them as being the = genetic outcome of inbreeding within the aristocracy over hundreds = (thousands?) of years to create an offshoot of humanity with desirable = traits. (picture them as the Great Danes or Labradors of the human = world) Being cut off from Urth would only heighten their unique = genetics.=20 We find many things familar that Jonas also finds familar. Example: The = name kimleesoong, the city of Athens and the story of Theseus, the = practice of kingship in the middle ages, among others. Obviously being = a sailor and a robot he is not from our time, yet he is also not so far = in the future to live at a time when Korea has been forgotton. It is my = contention that he is from a time before the cataclysm, before Typhon = and Ymar and every other character mentioned. Kim Lee Soong is also = from this time and is in the same prediciment as Jonas, having returned = to find no starports, and is forced to crash land. Kim is NOT Hethor. = We are told all in the antechamber are decendents from ONE mythic = figure, kimleesoong. Whether they all actually true descendents is a = moot point -- they all have come to beleive they are seventh generation = descendents just as their parents have. Any family spending more than a = few generations in the antechamber would come to believe they are = seventh generation descendents of kimleesoong. This kimleesoong = obviously has a myth surrounding him, being the Adam figure of the = Antechamber and we hear about this myth from the little girl. She says = "When the navigator was buried there were black wagons and people in = black clothes walking." chap XVI. That's right, kimleesoong IS the = navigator, and the navigator is dead. We are not told they are = descended from 'a crew', we are told they are descended from a single = individual the only other mythic figure we hear about is 'the navigator' = and I believe they are the same person. Is Jonas Korean? I don't think so. He states that Kim Lee Soong is a = name that was common when we was 'a boy' (new robot) in places 'now = under the water' (Korea). He also says that Jonas was also a common = name of this time. Jonas is NOT a Korean name! I really believe that = if Jonas was Korean, Wolfe would have given him a Korean name. Jonas = tells us he was born to the south on the coast and we have no reason to = believe otherwise. If the Commonwealth is in South America, then Jonas = is from S. Am at a time far in the past. Hell, English can be nasally = and monosylabic at times, we don't know what they speak in the = Commonwealth. Finally, the reasons for Jonas' dementia have been guessed at. Someone = mentioned that maybe he had found the survivors of his ship and realizes = that they are far removed from those he once knew. I don't agree and = have a different theory. Jonas states his mission in chap XVIII: "...I = am leaving you. Now I have the chance, and it is the chance I sought = for years as I went up and down the seven continents of this world = seeking the Hierodules and tinkering with clumsy mechanisms." Jonas = crashes and his only goal has been to return to the stars. Urth holds = nothing for him any more, it is not the place he once knew. The only = reason he'll come back once he is repaired is to retrieve Jolenta. Then = why does Jonas go crazy in the antechamber? Or as he puts it "I feel as = if I were waking up... I think perhaps I'm going sane, and that is as = bad or worse." Jonas has come to a realization. "Remember, years = before I met you I had become one of you." Jonas has been in a trance = all this time, almost believing the lie he has created, that he is at = home on Urth and one of its people. Jonas finally comes to the = realization that he doesn't belong in the antechamber. For him, all of = Urth is an antechamber and when he talks of escaping he is talking about = the confines of Urth as much as the confines of the antechamber. Jonas = sees (and I presume Wolfe intended us to see as well) that the = antechamber is a small replica of Urth. Jonas, when speaking of the = antechamber, could just as well be describing all of Urth when he says, = "Externally they have been shaped completely by this place where they = have spent all their lives. Yet beneath that are... Family memories... = traditions... that have been handed down to them, generation to = generation, from the original prisoners from whom they are descended. = They don't know what some of the words mean any longer, but they cling = to the traditions, to the stories, because those are all they have; the = stories and their names." Wolfe is not just using the antechamber as a = cute plot device, he is using it to shed further light on the nature of = Urth. All they have are the STORIES and the NAMES, two themes that run = deep in the Urth cycle. When Jonas makes the connection he looses it = and realizes he has to escape, make himself whole, because he has been = broken for a long time. Well, how's that for a first post, feel free to pick me apart, I love = discussion and will enjoy speaking with the group. As a final side note = I'd like to say something about Jolenta and Jonas. He loves her, but = why? Their names both begin with JO and both are half human and half = creation. I always thought that Wolfe did that on purpose I don't know = if he was trying to say anything deeper. I'll give it some thought. = Untill next time.... hmm... nickname? Call me FunkMonkey, I'm sure its a real animal! Sincerely, FunkMonkey PS. I havn't read the last book of the Whorl so I'm not subscribed to = the other list. I would surely not have the self control not to read = all the surprise twists revealed in your posts. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD7462.EB64A2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm extremly excited to join the = group and this=20 is my first posting. It's always a great thrill to see people = discussing a=20 subject you really enjoy and I feel a sort of homecoming and kindred to = you all,=20 even though I hardly know you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Forgive me for rehashing old = subjects, but I=20 have been reading the recent archives and feel I can add to your = discussion on=20 the subject of Jonas, kimleesoong, and the age of the planet = Urth.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>First I will touch on my ideas of = how far in the=20 future Urth is. It has always been my contention that as Ushas had = replaced Urth after the cataclysm, Urth had replaced Earth after some = terreble=20 cataclysm befell it. As in a nuclear war, a few survivors would = exist in a=20 sort of dark age untill a time where civilization could be = rebuilt. While=20 their traditions would have echoes of something familliar the traditions = would=20 be shaped by their new surroundings. Before the cataclysm Earth = had=20 definitly achieved starship travle and probably became a stellar = empire. =20 After the cataclysm this empire became fragmented. The exultants, = (again,=20 more of a feeling than any hard fact in the book) headed by Typhon, = returned to=20 Earth (now Urth) in an attempt to return the empire to its final glory = bringing=20 with them all manner of machines and relics from the early days of super = technology. The exultants are way too similar to humans to be any = sort of=20 alien race. I see them as being the genetic outcome of inbreeding = within=20 the aristocracy over hundreds (thousands?) of years to create an = offshoot of=20 humanity with desirable traits. (picture them as the Great Danes = or=20 Labradors of the human world) Being cut off from Urth would only = heighten=20 their unique genetics. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>We find many things familar that Jonas also finds=20 familar. Example: The name kimleesoong, the city of Athens and the = story=20 of Theseus, the practice of kingship in the middle ages, among = others. =20 Obviously being a sailor and a robot he is not from our time, yet he is = also not=20 so far in the future to live at a time when Korea has been = forgotton. It=20 is my contention that he is from a time before the cataclysm, before = Typhon and=20 Ymar and every other character mentioned. Kim Lee Soong is also = from this=20 time and is in the same prediciment as Jonas, having returned to find no = starports, and is forced to crash land. Kim is NOT Hethor. = We are=20 told all in the antechamber are decendents from ONE mythic figure,=20 kimleesoong. Whether they all actually true descendents is a moot = point --=20 they all have come to beleive they are seventh generation descendents = just as=20 their parents have. Any family spending more than a few = generations in the=20 antechamber would come to believe they are seventh generation = descendents of=20 kimleesoong. This kimleesoong obviously has a myth surrounding = him, being=20 the Adam figure of the Antechamber and we hear about this myth from the = little=20 girl. She says "When the navigator was buried there were = black wagons=20 and people in black clothes walking." chap XVI. That's right, = kimleesoong IS the navigator, and the navigator is dead. We are = not told=20 they are descended from 'a crew', we are told they are descended from a = single=20 individual the only other mythic figure we hear about is 'the navigator' = and I=20 believe they are the same person.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is Jonas Korean? I don't think so. He = states that=20 Kim Lee Soong is a name that was common when we was 'a boy' (new robot) = in=20 places 'now under the water' (Korea). He also says that Jonas was = also=20 a common name of this time. Jonas is NOT a Korean = name! I=20 really believe that if Jonas was Korean, Wolfe would have given him a = Korean=20 name. Jonas tells us he was born to the south on the coast and we = have no=20 reason to believe otherwise. If the Commonwealth is in South = America, then=20 Jonas is from S. Am at a time far in the past. Hell, English can = be=20 nasally and monosylabic at times, we don't know what they speak in the=20 Commonwealth.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Finally, the reasons for Jonas' dementia have been = guessed=20 at. Someone mentioned that maybe he had found the survivors of his = ship=20 and realizes that they are far removed from those he once knew. I = don't=20 agree and have a different theory. Jonas states his mission in = chap=20 XVIII: "...I am leaving you. Now I have the chance, and = it is=20 the chance I sought for years as I went up and down the seven continents = of this=20 world seeking the Hierodules and tinkering with clumsy = mechanisms." =20 Jonas crashes and his only goal has been to return to the stars. = Urth=20 holds nothing for him any more, it is not the place he once knew. = The only=20 reason he'll come back once he is repaired is to retrieve Jolenta. = Then=20 why does Jonas go crazy in the antechamber? Or as he puts it = "I feel=20 as if I were waking up... I think perhaps I'm going sane, and that = is as=20 bad or worse." Jonas has come to a realization. = "Remember,=20 years before I met you I had become one of you." Jonas has = been in a=20 trance all this time, almost believing the lie he has created, that he = is at=20 home on Urth and one of its people. Jonas finally comes to the = realization=20 that he doesn't belong in the antechamber. For him, all of Urth is = an=20 antechamber and when he talks of escaping he is talking about the = confines of=20 Urth as much as the confines of the antechamber. Jonas sees (and I = presume=20 Wolfe intended us to see as well) that the antechamber is a small = replica of=20 Urth. Jonas, when speaking of the antechamber, could just as well = be=20 describing all of Urth when he says, "Externally they have been = shaped=20 completely by this place where they have spent all their lives. Yet = beneath that=20 are... Family memories... traditions... that have been handed down = to=20 them, generation to generation, from the original prisoners from whom = they are=20 descended. They don't know what some of the words mean any longer, = but=20 they cling to the traditions, to the stories, because those are all they = have;=20 the stories and their names." Wolfe is not just using the = antechamber=20 as a cute plot device, he is using it to shed further light on the = nature of=20 Urth. All they have are the STORIES and the NAMES, two themes that = run=20 deep in the Urth cycle. When Jonas makes the connection he looses = it and=20 realizes he has to escape, make himself whole, because he has been = broken for a=20 long time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Well, how's that for a first post, feel free to pick = me apart,=20 I love discussion and will enjoy speaking with the group. As a = final side=20 note I'd like to say something about Jolenta and Jonas. He loves = her, but=20 why? Their names both begin with JO and both are half human and = half=20 creation. I always thought that Wolfe did that on purpose I don't = know if=20 he was trying to say anything deeper. I'll give it some = thought. =20 Untill next time....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>hmm... nickname? Call me = FunkMonkey, I'm=20 sure its a real animal!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sincerely,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>FunkMonkey</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>PS. I havn't read the last book of the Whorl = so I'm not=20 subscribed to the other list. I would surely not have the self = control not=20 to read all the surprise twists revealed in your posts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD7462.EB64A2E0-- *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
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