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...uhh...a bit more Stranger...
ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus · 22 Apr 2003, 10:40
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From: "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus" <zibethicus at hotmail.com> Subject: (urth) ...uhh...a bit more Stranger... Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:40:20 +0000 Message-ID: <urth-v0304-3286 at digest.urth.net> X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0304/3286.txt.shtml MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MEH: >Edgar Rice Burroughs was dead and buried by 1951. (sigh...) OK, OK...I left myself _wide_ open for that one...fair enuff... >William burroughs i really wouldn't consider as a science fiction=20 > >writer... Here we enter interesting territory; just _who is_ a science fiction writer= ?=20 And what is _science fiction_? and, further, Blattid thus: >I say "sort of" for Burroughs because he's writing outside the SF >genre,=20 >using tropes from the SF/F toolbox ... I find this thread to be of particular interest. I cannot and will not=20 purport to be an expert in 'SF', but the above comments from you both have=20 given me pause for thought last coupla days, roughly to the effect of what=20 _is_ science fiction, anyway? Is it a story which depends on a scientific construct for its plot? Is it a story which could not be told without the existence of a particular=20 sciento-technical structure? My dictionary: "a form of fiction which draws imaginatively on scientific=20 knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc." (Macquarie, 1s= t=20 Edn.) Now, this is a very broad definition - so broad that I would tentatively=20 suggest that much of Mr. Burroughs's (William Seward henceforth unless=20 stipulated otherwise) work could be called SF in this sense; as his=20 metamorphosing creatures are (partly) based on biological instances, to giv= e=20 just one example of what I mean. (Not to mention the psychological - or=20 pop-psychological, if you prefer - basis of his studies of control=20 addiction...) (In fact, it just occurred to me, by the above definition Ambrose Bierce's=20 'The Damned Thing' could also be defined as an SF story, as could many=20 others not normally included in this canon.) And, if Burroughs is not a SF writer in these terms, is this being said=20 because his work also attempts to meet other objectives? And, if so, it is=20 possible for a work to be SF but also _more_ than SF? >In fact, his SF owes more to Edgar Rice Burroughs than to modern SF, Oh, to be sure! But if the images are employed by a 'modern' writer such a= s=20 WSB in a different context, might they not take on a contemporary value of=20 their own? >but even he uses the strategic-deployment-of-details riffs Heinlein=20 > >pioneered (especially, but not solely, in NOVA EXPRESS). I'm afraid I haven't read enough Heinlein to really understand what you mea= n=20 by this pioneering. >Of the three you mention, Le Guin is actually the easiest to demonstrate=20 >the point for; read the first few pages of THE DISPOSSESSED. The technique=20 >used there, to establish the border and contrast between two worlds, is=20 >pure Heinlein; what's pure Le Guin is the repurposing of that technique to=20 >put the two societies in a meaningful [juxta|op]position. Well, sieur, you may very well be right - I've disqualified myself already=20 from passing specific judgement - but, surely, by the same standard, the=20 invention of another world to comment on this one (Ballard's words, BTW) is=20 hardly original to Mr. Heinlein, is it? Brings us back to the question of defining SF...I'm thinking of all the=20 moon-voyages throughout history...starting, perhaps, with Lucian... As far as I can understand (admittedly not very), it could just as well be=20 said that Heinlein's world-juxtaOPposition (beautiful portmanteau!) is very=20 Lucianian... >Ballard is the toughest one, because so much of his SF is in a deliberate=20 >rejection of Campbell-Heinlein SF/F; I would guess, once again, that it might be more of a matter of an expansio= n=20 beyond these parameters rather than a rejection of them per se; I believe=20 that Mr. Ballard has cited Celine as a primary influence, and he certainly=20 wears Jarry enough on his sleeve to paraphrase 'The Passion Considered as a= n=20 Uphill Bicycle Race' as the last chapter of 'The Atrocity Exhibition'. Yet, many of his early short stories are conventionally set off-world... >Some years ago I suggested in a review that THE ATROCITY EXHIBITION, CRASH= ,=20 >etc., are what happens if you write "hard SF," but do your speculating in=20 >abnormal psychology instead of physics or chemistry. "In fact, I believe that if it were possible to scrap the whole of existing=20 literature, and be forced to begin again without any knowledge of the past,=20 all writers would find themselves inevitably producing something very close=20 to science fiction...[w]e live inside an enormous novel. For the writer in=20 particular it is less and less necessary for him to invent the fictional=20 content of his novel. The fiction is already there. The writer's task is=20 to invent the reality." - from the introduction to 'Crash' I do agree with your contention that Ballard has used rhetorical and=20 thematic devices which were employed by Heinlein and his contemporaries,=20 especially in his earlier work, as you say...although ultimately to a very=20 different end. (I find it interesting, BTW, that Ballard's status as an SF=20 writer seems to be unquestioned, in contrast to that of WSB.) >Which isn't about sex at all (as the feminist movement spent many years=20 >informing us), but is nonetheless boneheaded. >Unfortunately for your understanding, the whole business about Manson=20 >basing his religion on STRANGER turns out to be a sort of STFnal urban=20 >legend; he had never even read the book before going to jail. Oh well,=20 >it's a good story anyway. General remarks: firstly, I do apologise to any Heinlein fans whose feather= s=20 or feelers I may have ruffled. I am sure that he deserves his stature, but=20 unfortunately, I didn't read much Golden Age stuff in my vanished youth, an= d=20 the passage in 'Stranger' I've cited has pretty much put me off re-examinin= g=20 him for the present. Vita brevis - and in the event of having the=20 hypothetical spare time, I'd probably rather spend it in re-reading=20 Cordwainer Smith...just a question of personal taste... Re. Manson, please forgive my offhand remarks if they caused offense;=20 nevertheless, I am a trifle confused about your correction. I was under=20 the impression that Mr. Manson had read 'Stranger' well before his release=20 from Terminal Island in 1967. At any rate, as I already observed, he was=20 well-misversed enough in the text to name his son Michael Valentine=20 Manson...or are you saying that this did not happen? In any case, I'm sure that 'Stranger' bears as little responsibility for th= e=20 events precipitated by Mr. Manson as the other influences to which he was=20 exposed, _allegedly_ including Scientology and LaVeyesque Satanism, and I'm=20 sure that Mr. Heinlein didn't intend the work to be used in that manner _if= _=20 it did happen...but the abuse is suggestive, given the nature of the=20 text...it was also alleged that the Family referred to some of their murder= s=20 as 'discorporations', despite their all-too-tangible and messy nature... This is about all I know of the matter, and I may very well be mistaken. I= n=20 any case, as I have already said, I am probably disqualified from passing=20 judgement on 'Stranger', as it is my mother-in-law's favourite book... Solemnly, ->Zx<- PS: _Every SF writer?_ Lem? The Russians? ____________________________________________________________ The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that believe i= n=20 it. Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in=20 it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't. - The Honest Book of Truth, The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1 ____________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to =20 http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp --=20
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