Arete questions

Andrew Bollen · 25 Jun 2003, 10:20 · from urth-v0306.mbox · original
This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.
From: "Andrew Bollen" <abollen at internode.on.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Arete questions
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:20:38 +1000
Message-ID: <urth-v0306-3528 at digest.urth.net>
X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0306/3528.txt.shtml
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_026E_01C33B57.3DBA29F0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_026E_01C33B57.3DBA29F0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Crush helps out:
    But to the point, there is one small issue that Andrew brings up =
that I think I understand. Latro kept his bargan with Artemis -- he =
raced. Hegisistratus' job was to **remind** Latro that he was to win. He =
failed to do that, so Latro won the favor of both Artemis and Hera, but =
Hegisistratus was "a dead man".

    I say:=20

    (What's that bar doing there? Anyway ...)  I'm not sure about this. =
Artemis' words were: "You bring victory, Latro, so you must drive for my =
prince. If you ***succeed*** you'll be rewarded." That sounds to me like =
Latro was supposed to achieve some specific outcome, not just show up & =
race.=20

    Also, and a hint that maybe "success" here wasn't necessarily =
winning the race: Ghost of Sisyphus to Latro in Ch 39: "{Elata is] on =
your side [because you] promised the Huntress that you'd  ***fix*** the =
race."=20

    Tisamenus in Delphi has a message from Artemis in a dream, shortly =
before the race: "The queen must win, and thus the queen must lose." Now =
if this was the only expression of Artemis' will we had, I wouldn't have =
a problem. I could read it this way: "My priestess queen Gorgo must win =
the important battle - ie, Pausanias must not wrest the kingship away =
from her son - so her horses must lose, else P. will get too powerful."=20

    But I think you are right that Hegesistrtus nowhere explicitly =
reminds Latro - he does prophesy Latro's "greatest victory", but that's =
not the same thing. So perhaps you're on to something - specifically, =
maybe Artemis has changed her mind since meeting them on the border of =
Thrace. Hegesistratus still has to be punished for screwing up his task, =
but maybe the desired outcome has changed slightly. The subtly different =
words she gives Tisamenus ("the queen" and "the queen", rather than "my =
queen" and "this queen") perhaps reflect this.

    Ch 38 seems to be important. This is the scene where the servants of =
Gaia - Aglaus, the centaurs etc - meet with the servant of Artemis, =
Elata, "sent into this quarrel to represent her interests." Sisyphus =
turns up, too, he says as a friend of Latro's, but perhaps also =
representing Kore's interests.=20

    Latro doesn't describe the workings of the conference (of course - =
aaaarrrrgh), but the purpose is to find a way to get him out of his =
depression. The story I make up about all this is that Latro is supposed =
to be a pawn in the game between Gaia and Artemis. While he is paralyzed =
with depression, the game can't go on. If the race goes ahead and he =
performs in a mediocre kind of way, nobody's interests are served.=20

    So the conference is to find a way to get him better, and also to =
find an agreeable compromise between (a) commitments made to him to help =
him find his friends, by both goddesses and (b) the goddess' conflicting =
plans for Pausanias. I have an image of the terrestial servants dealing =
with ways to pull Latro out of his hole, while the goddesses hammer out =
a deal in heaven over the larger issues.=20

    On this model, Gaia accepts (as she knew she might have to) that =
Pausanias isn't going to be king - but the helots eventually will wreak =
havoc on Sparta from the "bottom up" - which is what happened =
historically, I think. As she prophesies to the helots in Ch 31 of Mist: =
"Still he [Pausanias] and I may fail [to gain the kingship]. If so, I =
shall destroy Rope [..] then you must rise against the Rope Makers ..."

    In return, Artemis agrees to a modified plan in which Pausanias is =
still set on the road to destruction, but in a way which gets Latro oin =
the road home. Or something. It looks a bit lame, I suppose, but I'm =
trying, dammit :)


-- 
------=_NextPart_000_026E_01C33B57.3DBA29F0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
Crush helps out:

  
    But to the point, there is one =
small issue=20
    that Andrew brings up that I think I understand. Latro kept his bargan with Artemis -- he =
raced.=20
    Hegisistratus' job was to **remind** Latro that he was to win. He =
failed to=20
    do that, so Latro won the favor of both Artemis and Hera, but =
Hegisistratus=20
    was "a dead man".
     
    I say: 
     
    (What's that bar doing there? =
Anyway ...) =20
    I'm not sure about this. Artemis' words were: "You bring victory, =
Latro, so=20
    you must drive for my prince. If you ***succeed*** you'll be =
rewarded." That=20
    sounds to me like Latro was supposed to achieve some specific =
outcome,=20
    not just show up & race. 
     
    Also, and a hint =
that maybe "success"=20
    here wasn't necessarily winning the race: Ghost of Sisyphus to Latro in Ch 39: "{Elata is] on your =
side=20
    [because you] promised the Huntress that you'd  ***fix*** =
the=20
    race." 
     
    Tisamenus in Delphi has a message =
from Artemis=20
    in a dream, shortly before the race: "The queen must win, and thus =
the queen=20
    must lose." Now if this was the only expression of Artemis' will we =
had, I=20
    wouldn't have a problem. I could read it this way: "My priestess =
queen Gorgo=20
    must win the important battle - ie, Pausanias must not wrest the =
kingship=20
    away from her son - so her horses must lose, else P. will get too =
powerful."=20
    
     
    
    But I think you are right that =
Hegesistrtus=20
    nowhere explicitly reminds Latro - he does prophesy Latro's =
"greatest=20
    victory", but that's not the same thing. So perhaps you're on to =
something -=20
    specifically, maybe Artemis has changed her mind since meeting them =
on the=20
    border of Thrace. Hegesistratus still has to be punished for =
screwing up his=20
    task, but maybe the desired outcome has changed slightly. The subtly =

    different words she gives Tisamenus ("the queen" and "the queen", =
rather=20
    than "my queen" and "this queen") perhaps reflect=20
    this.
     
    Ch 38 seems to be important. This =
is the scene=20
    where the servants of Gaia - Aglaus, the centaurs etc - meet with =
the=20
    servant of Artemis, Elata, "sent into this quarrel to represent her=20
    interests." Sisyphus turns up, too, he says as a friend of Latro's, =
but=20
    perhaps also representing Kore's interests. 
     
    Latro doesn't describe the workings =
of the=20
    conference (of course - aaaarrrrgh), but the purpose is to find a =
way to get=20
    him out of his depression. The story I make up about all this is =
that Latro=20
    is supposed to be a pawn in the game between Gaia and Artemis. While =
he is=20
    paralyzed with depression, the game can't go on. If the race goes =
ahead and=20
    he performs in a mediocre kind of way, nobody's interests are =
served.=20
    
     
    So the conference is to find a way =
to get him=20
    better, and also to find an agreeable compromise between (a) =
commitments=20
    made to him to help him find his friends, by both goddesses and (b) =
the=20
    goddess' conflicting plans for Pausanias. I have an image of the =
terrestial=20
    servants dealing with ways to pull Latro out of his hole, while the=20
    goddesses hammer out a deal in heaven over the larger issues. =

     
    On this model, Gaia accepts (as she =
knew she=20
    might have to) that Pausanias isn't going to be king - but the =
helots=20
    eventually will wreak havoc on Sparta from the "bottom up" - which =
is what=20
    happened historically, I think. As she prophesies to the =
helots in Ch=20
    31 of Mist: "Still he [Pausanias] and I may fail [to gain the =
kingship]. If=20
    so, I shall destroy Rope [..] then you must rise against the Rope =
Makers=20
    ..."
     
    In return, Artemis agrees to a =
modified plan in=20
    which Pausanias is still set on the road to destruction, but in a =
way which=20
    gets Latro oin the road home. Or something. It looks a bit lame, I =
suppose,=20
    but I'm trying, dammit :)
     </BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_026E_01C33B57.3DBA29F0--
An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net