AI souls

Stanis³aw Bocian · 07 Dec 2004, 12:30 · from 2004-December.txt.gz

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From: sbocian at poczta.fm (=?ISO-8859-1?B?U3Rhbmlzs2F3IEJvY2lhbg==?=)
Date: Tue Dec  7 12:30:23 2004
Subject: (urth) AI souls
In-Reply-To: <000a01c4dc23$f8242160$513ec6d8 at rclackey.stic.net>
References: <000a01c4dc23$f8242160$513ec6d8 at rclackey.stic.net>
Message-ID: <13114668501.20041207214243 at poczta.fm>

Tuesday, December 7, 2004, 7:14:04 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

RCL> Just so. And Wolfe goes out of his way to make Apheta and her kind have no
RCL> tongues. In Chapter XIX, aptly named "Silence", Apheta says:
RCL> --------------------------------------------
RCL> "You have listened to my voice for a long
RCL> while now, Autarch. Listen to this world of Yesod instead
RCL> and tell me what you hear, other than my words, when I
RCL> speak to you. Listen! What do you hear?"
RCL>       I did not understand. I said, "Nothing. But you are a
RCL> human woman."
RCL>       "You hear nothing because we speak with silence, even
RCL> as you with sound. Whatever noises we find we shape,
RCL> canceling those which are unneeded, voicing our thoughts
RCL> in the remainder. That is why I led you here, where the
RCL> waves murmur always; and why we have so many fountains,
RCL> and trees to stir their leaves in the wind from our sea."
RCL> --------------------------------------------

Compare with the Hierodules in the Sword of the Lictor:

 "I asked, "You have left them these machines, then?" I was acutely
 conscious, as I spoke, of the eviscerated woman mumbling beneath her
 glass somewhere behind me, a thing that once would not have bothered
 the torturer Severian in the least.

 Barbatus said, "No. Those he found, or constructed for himself.
 Famulimus said that he wished to learn, and that we saw to it that he
 did, not that we taught him. We teach no one anything, and only trade
 such devices as are too complex for your people to duplicate."

 Dr. Talos said, "These monsters, these horrors, do nothing for us.
 You've seen them?you know what they are. ...

 ....

 "Now we must go," Ossipago told Baldanders, and he handed him the
 Claw. "Think well on all the things we have not told you, and
 remember what you have not been shown."

 "I will," Baldanders said, his voice as grim as I was ever to hear
 it."

I wonder whether my ideas about Tolkien's Valar would not apply here.
I think that all supernatural forces in the Lord of the Ring tend to
act upon the material world in a specific way - they don't cause
anything themselves, but manipulate natural causes. I don't think here
about lesser natural spirits such as ents etc, but about more
powerfull being.

 For example Valar and the wind - the change of direction of wind at
 the battle of Pelennor is entirely natural, but it is no accident
 that it happened then, and not at any other time. The idea is, by the
 way, from Tom Shippey.

 Using an idea from modern science, the Valar and similar beings don't
 influence the probability wave, but set a particular result when the
 wave collapses, that is, when it is measured or reacts with some
 object. In other words, Sauron could roll any number he wanted on the
 dice without cheating - he could, to some extent, simply select it.

 The idea I want to express is a bit difficult. I want to say that
 such beings can influence events without exerting any kind of force.
 When something can happen, according to chance, one way or another,
 they can try to select an outcome. But this power doesn't allow them
 to cause anything which wouldn't happen by itself - they cannot cause
 anything which wouldn't happen naturally - although, of course, they
 are a great many thing which could happen naturally, but never do,
 since they are so unprobable.

 The most interesting thing in such a case would be that the cause of
 such an event would be entirely natural, since it would be only the
 more or less probable outcome of the forces operating independently
 of the Maiar/Valar. At the same time it would be caused by the Valar.
 Therefore, the event would have two independent causes, natural and
 supernatural. So the question whether the wind at Pelennor was
 natural or sent by Valar would have as the answer - both.

 I will not say that this is the only power of the Valar over the
 material world, but it is the one most often seen in the LoTR. Here
 belong such words of Gandalf, as "Chance, as you call it" etc. It
 explains also the limitations of their power. For example as Gandalf
 states on Caradhras, he cannot go against the nature of the things,
 he must have something to work on.

 "`If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a
 path for you,' said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and
 he alone of the Company remained still light of heart.     `If Elves
 could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,'
 answered Gandalf. `But I must have something to work on. I cannot
 burn snow.'"

 The magic of the Elves seems to be mostly similar, if sometimes
 instinctive and not fully conscious.

 For the example the incident with the rope in the Two Towers: "He
looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell.
To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell
over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him.
Frodo laughed. `Who tied the rope? ' he said.  ....      'Then I'm
afraid it must have been the knot,' said Frodo.      Sam shook his
head and did not answer. He was passing the rope through his fingers
thoughtfully. `Have it your own way, Mr. Frodo,' he said at last, `but
I think the rope came off itself ? when I called.' He coiled it up and
stowed it lovingly in his pack."

--

Stanislaus Bocian

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