urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 19

James Wynn · 09 Dec 2004, 13:58 · from 2004-December.txt.gz

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From: thewynns at earthlink.net (James Wynn)
Date: Thu Dec  9 13:58:43 2004
Subject: (urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 19
References: <20041209005328.EC2BD3956 at sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <006c01c4de3a$3e4d4fa0$4c1e4b0a at vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>

So much has gone on since my last post I'm hesitant reference quotes
precisely so I'll just sum up.

Civit's delineation between a simple and complex soul is astute. For
convenience sake I think one should call the "simple" version a "soul" and
the complex version the "psyche".

Roy's reference to Sidero is a pertinent one. But there are some weaknesses:
a) Sidero does not question his existence. The conversation between Severian
and Sidero only touches on how men were formed from less complex and how
Sidero's "people" did as well. That men and autonomous robots are complex
and independent and slowly evovled from less forms does mean that Sidero (or
even Severian, for that matter) has a soul.

b) That Sidero apologizes for his past does not mean he has a soul or is
even sentient. Sidero was made to work among and with men and, originally at
least, for men. Now one presumes he works for mankind. Social graces would
be necessary for such a task and would logically be programmed in.

c) That Sidero felt pleasure in hitting Severian does not mean that he has a
soul or is even sentient. Chems in LS take pleasure in good smells because
they need to to cook well. Consequently, it would not be unreasonable for
Chems to wear perfume or for Sidero be inclined to take "pleasure" in
whatever task he is programmed to do. My dog seems to take pleasure in so
many things, but despite what Martin Luther may say (and what Able implies
in The Wizard), my dog (as opposed to Gylf) does not have a soul.
Note that Sidero does not apologize for striking Severian. In that

d) The fact that Sidero repents does not require that he believes in God.
Any atheist would tell you that I'm sure.

Does sentiency (which, I guess, falls under the realm of the psyche) presume
a soul? I don't see why it should. Wolfe provides an example of psyche not
co-existing with a soul in a recent work. So may argue that it is not
reasonable to draw parallels between a work of fantasy and a work of science
fiction. I disagree, because the consideration of the soul spans science
fiction and fantasy and 2) the Sun cycle decimates any strict genre
guidelines between the two anyway.

Here examples of the "soul" experiments Wolfe offers that I can think of:
A) The Machine Analogies:
Mr. Million, The Fox, Sidero, Chems, The Whorl Gods, The Short Sun (SS)
Mother.

B) Animals With Souls
Scylla-in-Oreb, Mani-with-his-Elemental-Soul, Gylf, the Inhumi, Babbie
(remember we see his soul during dream travel)

(other talking animals include Oreb in his natural state and Tick the
Catachrest, do they have souls? -- btw how did Echidna summon all those
snakes?)

The Possessions:
Thecla in Sev, the line of Autarchs in Sev, Lemur in the chem,
Rose-In-Marble, the Whorl Gods in Humans, Mucor-in-People  (IMO:
Mamelta-in-Marble, Molybdenum-in-Marble, Pas-in-Hammerstone, )

Memory experiements:
Latro (who can't remember anything for more than 18 hours) and the Whorl
Sleepers who can't remember their lives on Urth and seems to have been
implanted with false memories)

Pot Pouri:
Typhon and Piaton, Dream-Travel, Mucor's travel (which may not count since
apparently involves remotely imprinting her image on the minds of other
people), The Neighbors; Question: When Severian rides in Sidero does that
constitute another soul in the same way that Mani and his elemental
constitute a temporary soul?

It is interesting to me that Wolfe never chose to take Marble on a
dream-travel trip. It would help in this discussion if he had.

All this does not influence my conviction that Wolfe has betrayed a belief
in a *soul* instead of merely a *psyche* but he seems deliberately obscure
regarding where the dividing line is between them and as I said, I could
definitely understand someone seeing it the opposite way.

>Notice the Catholics accepted evolution and thermodynamics while the
Protestants do not, besides the fact Catholics don't deracinate Christianity

I was not aware of the former, and I'm sure I could make a case that
Catholics have deracinated as much as anyone with even more vigor. Some
Catholics believe in evolution and some don't. Just like Protestants, and
both are bothered by the idea that the universe material universe is a
closed cycle in which only chemical and physical operations apply.

Also, one of the Pope's primary reasons for coming out against human cloning
and contraception is a rejection of making humanity a human creation.

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