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A question, an observation
stilskin · 10 Aug 2000, 07:26
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From: stilskin at sff.net Subject: (whorl) A question, an observation Date: 10 Aug 2000 07:26:37 Message-ID: <whorl-v0011-0083 at digest.urth.net> X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0011/0083.shtml MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Forgive the question, but I can't for the life of me remember where we're s= hown that Hyacinth is dead or that Silk has committed suicide as I see stat= ed in many posts. Could someone cite evidence for this for me? As to the awful cover of IGJ, I raised this point with an EWSRN (editor who= shall remain nameless), and he replied that Wolfe already had the thoughtf= ul, literate readers, so the only way to expand his readership is to attact= the lovers of pure shlock, hence this ridiculous cover, which is even wors= e than that of OBW (the worst Wolfe cover up to that point). I shudder to t= hink of what lies ahead . . . . Falcon On Wed, 09 August 2000, whorl-errors at lists.best.com wrote: >=20 >=20 > -------------- BEGIN whorl.v011.n013 -------------- >=20 > 001 - "Chris Hall" <chall at aoe.v - RE: "Wijzer warned me" (more Blue m= ysteries) > 002 - "Chris Hall" <chall at aoe.v - RE: Digest whorl.v011.n012 > 003 - "Chris Hall" <chall at aoe.v - IGJ Thoughts [editing of Horn's boo= k] > 004 - Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt. - Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts > 005 - Michael Andre-Driussi <ma - (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk = (2) > 006 - akt at attglobal.net - In Green's Cover > 007 - Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt. - Inhumi Secret > 008 - Adam Stephanides <adamste - Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts > 009 - Adam Stephanides <adamste - Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret > 010 - Adam Stephanides <adamste - IGJ: altar scene >=20 > WHORL Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.1 --------------- >=20 > From: "Chris Hall" <chall at aoe.vt.edu> > Subject: RE: "Wijzer warned me" (more Blue mysteries) > Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 13:57:39 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16319 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.5 >=20 > "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea at colby.edu> wrote > Subject: more Blue mysteries > Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:18:13 -0400 >=20 > 4) What does "Wijzer warned me" on page 366 refer to? >=20 > I don't have the book with me at work, but when I read this line I went b= ack > and reread Horn's conversation with Wijzer and figured this out (I think). > Wijzer said something to the effect that eventually Horn would change so > that even his own sons wouldn't recognize him. >=20 > Chris > ----- > Christopher D. Hall > Aerospace and Ocean Engineering > Virginia Tech > Blacksburg, VA 24061-0203 > (540) 231-2314 > (540) 231-9632 (FAX) > http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~chall >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.2 --------------- >=20 > From: "Chris Hall" <chall at aoe.vt.edu> > Subject: RE: Digest whorl.v011.n012 > Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:01:52 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16319 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.8 >=20 > From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net> > Subject: IGJ Thoughts > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 -0500 > A few thoughts. >=20 > [snip] >=20 > 7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk th= at > Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains > unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong.... >=20 >=20 > I think it was edited, at least read by his family, since in OBW there are > annotations by Hide or Hoof > saying that >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.3 --------------- >=20 > From: "Chris Hall" <chall at aoe.vt.edu> > Subject: IGJ Thoughts [editing of Horn's book] > Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:03:05 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16319 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.8=20 >=20 > From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net> > Subject: IGJ Thoughts > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 -0500 > A few thoughts. >=20 > [snip] >=20 > 7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk th= at > Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains > unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong.... >=20 >=20 > I think it was edited, at least read by his family, since in OBW there=20 > are annotations by Hide or Hoof saying that Nettle has read it. Don't > remember the page number though. >=20 > Chris > ----- > Christopher D. Hall > Aerospace and Ocean Engineering > Virginia Tech > Blacksburg, VA 24061-0203 > (540) 231-2314 > (540) 231-9632 (FAX) > http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~chall=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.4 --------------- >=20 > From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net> > Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:25:23 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > References: <200008091600.JAA00219 at lists1.best.com> > <200007240346.UAA17302 at lists1.best.com> > <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> > <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> > In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16316 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > At 12:32 PM 8/9/2000 -0400, you wrote: > >At 11:14 AM 8/9/00 -0500, Patera Nutria wrote: > >> 4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on h= uman > >>characteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire "image of God" > >>souls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become > >>clear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could = not > >>join the projection.=20 > > > >Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't "human= ".=20 >=20 > Good point. Of course, as you note, Oreb talks. Also, there is a distance > between reptiles and mammals that might figure in. >=20 > Nutria >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.5 --------------- >=20 > From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at sirius.com> > Subject: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk (2) > Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:55:30 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > References: <200008081624.JAA25409 at lists1.best.com> > <200008081510.IAA22603 at lists1.best.com> > In-Reply-To: <200008081658.JAA11109 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > >My sense of it is that Silk committed suicide (with knife) by himself ne= xt > >to Hyacinth in her coffin. >=20 > To expand this and add to it: >=20 > 1) I think that Silk really crossed the Rubicon and slashed himself, > offering his own body as a funeral sacrifice, just as I think Horn's body > gave out on him against his will to live and struggle on Green. I don't > think Silk just thinking, "Gosh, I could just die right now, I'm so sad" > would be nearly enough. >=20 > 2) Because I think Silk killed himself, I think Horn has a very > different/revised impression of the real man behind the mask that was fir= st > created by the politics of Viron and later embellished/enshrined within h= is > work TBOTLS. Silk's suicide is definitely non-heroic, even without a > Catholic angle. This factor plays in the whole "Horn/Silk Tangle." >=20 > 3) Metempsychosis, the transmigration of souls. My sense of what the > Neighbors did and how they explained it is this: Silk wanted to die, and > was dying (but this was fixable); Horn wanted to live, and was dying; so > Horn's spirit (and probably his soul, if it is a separate thing within th= is > context) was put into Silk's body, and Silk's spirit/soul went elsewhere. > "Spirit Weak, Flesh Strong" and "Spirit Strong, Flesh Weak" into "Spirit > Strong, Flesh Strong" (and some discards of weak flesh, weak spirit). >=20 > 4) Seems to me that while Horn knows where Horn is (in Silk's body), and = he > knows that Silk is not there (except as a "ghostly" residue, like the see= ds > left after a god has possessed a Vironese person for a while), he does not > know where Silk's non-corporal part is. Two immediate options are: Silk's > spirit/soul has gone on to Mainframe/heaven (in which case nobody is ever > going to see him on Blue); Silk's spirit/soul has been installed into > another body, perhaps one that doesn't have a such a melancholic tinge (in > which case he might appear on Blue at any moment). I don't think that Ho= rn > thinks that Silk is in Horn's old body on Green: if he did, his > descriptions of "Silk" would sound more like the shorter bald guy we know > Horn looked like when he set out from Lizard Island: still, it is possible > that this is what the Neighbors did, but I tend to think it is not (I thi= nk > the Horn body is dead and decomposed). >=20 > Now, whether "Passilk" is a creation from before or after the suicide > remains to be seen. If after, well then, that's where Silk went--into > Mainframe (but even then he could download into a human host). >=20 > =3DThe Horn/Silk Tangle=3D >=20 > As we keep pointing out, the majority of the people in TBOSS know Silk on= ly > through reading TBOLS, they do not have firsthand experience. >=20 > The "Silk" they know, then, is a step or two removed from real-life. And > Horn is in a unique position to know, first-hand, how far off his own > boyhood hero-worshipping version was. >=20 > But the world of Blue seems to really need a hero exactly like the Silk of > TBOLS (crop failures, slavery, wars of expansion are just a few of the > problems marring the "paradise" of a new world). And as an architect of > that hero, Horn seems to have volunteered/been drafted to become the hero. >=20 > Paradoxically, this means that Horn must become more like "Silk" and less > like Silk; he must become the fiction, not the warts-and-all fact. So > things are being burned away: bits of Silk, bits of Horn. >=20 >=20 > On to the editing of Horn's first book (OBW), but not his second book > (IGJ): yes, this =3Dis=3D something very interesting. OBW has five frames > (Blue, Green, Whorl, present, and future), but IGJ has only two (Green and > present); we have no indication that Horn returned home, nor even his book > IGJ being read by his family. Things are very uncertain, suddenly. >=20 > With regard to the next volume, I have a suspicion that there will be even > =3Dless=3D about the whorl, directly and indirectly, then there is about = Green > in IGJ: rather like how Sainte Anne is in 5HC (you =3Dthink=3D you've been > there, but you've really just read a forgery and a traveller's diary about > the place). >=20 > =3Dmantis=3D >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.6 --------------- >=20 > From: akt at attglobal.net > Subject: In Green's Cover > Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:35:15 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"Windows-1252" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > References: <200008091634.JAA16319 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > Got the book today and brought it home. And hid it from my houseguest! > Whoa--that cover! An amalgam of Ben Franklin and Joe Lieberman takes a > stroll with an octopoidal Highwayman! No, I couldn't face the (at best) > politely raised eyebrows or (worse) outright snickering that would have > been my lot had this been openly displayed! >=20 > -alga >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.7 --------------- >=20 > From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net> > Subject: Inhumi Secret > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:06:15 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > References: <200008091634.JAA16316 at lists1.best.com> > <200008091600.JAA00219 at lists1.best.com> > <200007240346.UAA17302 at lists1.best.com> > <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> > <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> > In-Reply-To: <200008091812.LAA03996 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men must die = for > the inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrative, > also to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being > willing to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did. > I submit that the eucharist the Outsider leads Horn to perform indica= tes > that this will turn out to be the answer. That's the meaning of the > eucharist, for by eating the death of Jesus into ourselves, we become able > to die for our enemies as He died for His. > That's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the hardest t= hing > of all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to lo= ve > the lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love. > When humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi acqui= re > this characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather > than destroy humans. This will "destroy" the inhumi, though I suspect it > will not annihilate them but transform them somehow. > I bet that Horn gives his life for Jahlee before it's all over. > I also bet that when it's all over, the Memoirs of Severian, the Book= of > Silk, and the Book of Horn will be seen as a progression. Severian never > really learns much about love, and certainly never dies for anyone. He do= es > grow and mature, but not as much as Silk. Silk makes much more progress, > but Horn will make the most. The triptich of their lives will make one > thematic narrative of personal growth and maturation into Christlikeness. > I cannot help but think of the Casher O'Neill stories of Cordwainer S= mith, > though I don't know if these influenced Wolfe at all. They deal with > politics, spirituality, and religion progressively, as "On the Gem Planet" > is a "mirror for princes"; "On the Wind Planet" is about conversion; and > "On the Sand Planet" is about the application of that conversion back into > the world. In a very broad way, Wolfe's three narratives follow the same > kinds of themes: in the real world, apart from the real world (on the > whorl), and back into the real world. Just a thought. > But I'll bet I'm right about the secret. >=20 > Patera Nutria >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.8 --------------- >=20 > From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:55:59 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > References: <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> > <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> <200008091600.JAA00219@lists= 1.best.com> >=20 > Jim Jordan wrote: >=20 > > 1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn. T= hat seemed > > clear to me. >=20 > Not to me. What the Neighbor says is "'I can send your spirit into > someone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying....Then there will > be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here and another > there.'" (127, my deletion doesn't affect the meaning) Nothing about > moving Silk's spirit at all. And the Neighbor doesn't say "there will > be one whole man and one dying man," just "there will be one whole man." >=20 > --Adam >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.9 --------------- >=20 > From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:11:31 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > References: <200008091634.JAA16316 at lists1.best.com> > <200008091600.JAA00219 at lists1.best.com> > <200007240346.UAA17302 at lists1.best.com> > <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> > <200007210238.TAA24235 at lists1.best.com> <200008100052.RAA23539@lists= 1.best.com> >=20 > Jim Jordan wrote: > >=20 > > I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men mus= t die for > > the inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrativ= e, > > also to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being > > willing to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did. > >[snip] > > That's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the har= dest thing > > of all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to = love > > the lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love. > > When humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi= acquire > > this characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather > > than destroy humans. This will "destroy" the inhumi, though I suspect it > > will not annihilate them but transform them somehow. >=20 > I don't think that this is the secret, for a couple of reasons. Fr one > thing, it doesn't fit several of the things we know about the secret: it > doesn't explain why the inhumi drink human blood, it doesn't have > anything to do with Krait's mother drinking from Sinew, and it doesn't > explain the Neighbor's remark on p. 21. >=20 > For another thing, iirc (I don't have the book with me) in OBW Horn says > explicitly that if humans could use the secret it would turn the inhumi > back into the unintelligent predators they originally were. So if > humans did come to "love the inhumi," they would presumably refuse to > apply the secret (since the inhumi have no wish to lose their > intelligence).=20 >=20 > --Adam >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.10 --------------- >=20 > From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net> > Subject: IGJ: altar scene > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:17:40 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >=20 > I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following > sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I > knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285) >=20 > Is that "them" a typo? If not, what does it mean? >=20 > --Adam >=20 >=20 > --------------- END whorl.v011.n013 --------------- >=20 >=20 > *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. > *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.moonmilk.com/whorl/ > *To leave the list, send "unsubscribe" to whorl-request at lists.best.com > *If it's Wolfe but not Long Sun, please use the URTH list: urth at lists.bes= t.com www.sff.net/people/stilskin _______________________________________________ Get free Internet access at www.thesimpsons.com *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.moonmilk.com/whorl/ *To leave the list, send "unsubscribe" to whorl-request at lists.best.com *If it's Wolfe but not Long Sun, please use the URTH list: urth at lists.best.= com
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