Soul & Body

James Jordan · 27 Feb 2001, 14:54 · from whorl-v0012.mbox · original

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at home.com>
Subject: (whorl) Soul & Body
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:54:00
Message-ID: <whorl-v0012-0387 at digest.urth.net>
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At 12:09 PM 2/27/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>  I think the most interesting question one can ask is whether or not Wolfe
>seriously considers the doctrine that at the true resurrection the body and
>the spirit are reunited in perfection.  In this orthodox understanding of =
the
>resurection, the body cannot be seen as an evil and flawed temporal=20
>construct,
>but as a necessary component of perfection.  How should we consider
>disembodied "souls" like Horn or even (at times) Mucor?  Are they the total
>being? Is the soul enough? For a fascinating discussion of the relation
>between the "real" identity of a man and the parts of his body, Ultan's
>lecture to Severian at the beginning of Shadow is an ideal place to start.
>(can the smallest finger of a man contains his whole essence, etc).  At the
>end of The Urth of the New Sun, it is very clear that Severian's soul has=20
>been
>hoisted from one body to another.  Is he the same Severian in essence with=
out
>that body, or are they inextricably linked?  I think the same kinds of ide=
as
>are being thrown around when we consider "Horn" in Silk.
>Marc Aramini

         Good ramble. Definitely some of what Wolfe's playing with. As=20
always, Ultan gives us a Borgesian perspective.
         I don't know that there is any real good way to "do" this kind of=20
thing. Our doctrine says that the soul (person) is separated from the=20
physical body at death, but rejoined to a new body (new atoms) in the=20
resurrection. So, there is some reality to the soul as the seat of=20
personhood. But, despite the many ways in which all branches of the Church=20
keep lapsing into gnosticism, Biblical religion is very physical, sexual,=20
culinary, festive, and bodily -- thus sacramental in the best sense. I.e.,=20
the sacraments are not a means of withdrawal from engagement with "social=20
issues," but should push believers back into the world, transformed.
         Now, "What happens if one soul gets into another body?" Well, I=20
don't think that ever happens, or even can, so there really is not going to=20
be a way to describe the results that is very satisfactory. To put it=20
another way, on Hindu presuppositions there is no problem; on Christian=20
presuppositions there is a vast problem. Souls don't "merge," and the body=20
is really an extension of the soul. Each soul has its own proper body, and=20
none other.
         Thus, one could use as a literary artifice the "ghost in a=20
machine" view, and just put Horn into Silk's body, with Silk himself gone.=20
Initially I thought that was all that was going on.
         Or, you can roll a bunch of memories together and give them to a=20
particular person, as happens to Casher O'Neill in Cordwainer Smith, and to=20
Severian in his Memoirs. That can be done, as in Smith, as a way of saying=20
that when a person receives Christ, he also receives all of the Church, all=20
of "true humanity" also -- thus all the wisdom of Jesus and all the wisdom=20
of humanity with Him.
         Or, you can dump memories into another person, and have those=20
memories "come to life again" as a person, like Thecla and everybody else=20
that comes into Severian (so that he becomes a kind of positive "Legion").=20
I guess something like that has happened to Horn in Silk. But, who are the=20
"new Thecla" and the "new Horn"? Have the original Thelca and Horn gone on=20
to their reward with the Outsider, so that we have new persons, with new=20
destinies, now travelling inside of Severian and Silk? Or is it that old=20
Horn and Thecla are not really yet dead and are continuing their lives=20
inside Silk and Severian?
         Again, what is the "soul status" of a download, like Mainframe=20
Pas, Kypris, or Silk? Are these separate persons? Are they real persons,=20
who can change, who are images of God in some sense, and who will go to the=20
Outsider in the end? Or are they just mechanical programmes? How does Wolfe=20
treat them? Or does Wolfe keep them backstage precisely because there=20
really is no answer to such questions within his own Christian framework?=20
(Smith's answer seems to be that if robots and animals are raised to the=20
point of being able to use language, they can interact with the Word of=20
God, and thus are true persons. Is that how Wolfe views the "gods of=20
mainframe"?)
         I guess my point is that to press into these questions may be=20
pointless. Such combinations of persons work at a symbolic level, and can=20
be dramatized in a SF narrative as a literary device. But this is=20
literature, not philosophy.
         There is a good deal of such stuff in Cordwainer Smith, given=20
Linebarger's interest in psychoanalysis, such as the question of what=20
happens to a "person" if his entire memory is wiped (i.e., at the end of=20
"The Dead Lady of Clown Town"). The Christian answer has to be that God=20
preserves the person, in His own way, though we cannot see it. Somehow it=20
is the same person, and a person is more than memory. But given that nobody=20
really understands even this stuff in real life, I don't see how Wolfe can=20
be very satisfactory if called upon to delineate the particulars of the=20
kinds of things he's doing. It works best, I suggest, to leave it at the=20
literary and symbolic level.

FWIW

Ptero-nutria (not a cradle Roman Catholic, but did go to RC grammar school=20
in the '50s)


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