Original Sin and pagan gods.

Nephilim simply means "powerful men" "great rulers,"

True, "son of God" means "ruler" in the Hebrew, and is used for angels once or twice, but it also >means "believer" and that is what it means here.

The sons of God who married the daughters of men because they were "good" (same word used >of the fruit Eve plucked) were the Sethites who married with the daughters of the Cainites. This >is clear from the context. In Genesis 4-5, men of the Sethite line worshipped Yahweh

Without interviewing him, there is really no way to know what Wolfe might be thinking about >such things, hence no way to know what his allusions might be. Moreover, Wolfe may be alluding >to fantastical readings of Genesis (e.g., Lilith) that he himself does not believe. So, be careful, and don't over-read.

At 06:38 AM 8/9/2006, you wrote: James B. Jordan writes regarding the fallen angel origin of the Nephilim:

Nephilim simply means "powerful men" "great rulers,"

but isn't the word also derived from the Hebrew for "fallen"?

also he writes:

True, "son of God" means "ruler" in the Hebrew, and is used for angels once or twice, but it also >means "believer" and that is what it means here.

The beginning of Genesis 6 says: 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. This indicates to me that the "sons of God" were not men and their intercourse with human women was something different from the human reproduction which had already covered the face of the earth. Why would God need to cleanse the earth of "believers" with a flood, which is described immediately after? and James says:

The sons of God who married the daughters of men because they were "good" (same word used >of the fruit Eve plucked) were the Sethites who married with the daughters of the Cainites. This >is clear from the context. In Genesis 4-5, men of the Sethite line worshipped Yahweh

So, the forbidden fruit Eve plucked was good? And "The serpent's job was to train them in wisdom". And what were these Sethite line guys doing when the rest of humanity was mulitplying. Why did they only discover the daughters of men later? I have trouble understanding all this, especially with a more clear, alternate explanation available. and lastly James B. Jordan writes:

Without interviewing him, there is really no way to know what Wolfe might be thinking about >such things, hence no way to know what his allusions might be. Moreover, Wolfe may be alluding >to fantastical readings of Genesis (e.g., Lilith) that he himself does not believe. So, be careful, and don't over-read.

Yes, but aren't you the James Jordan who did interview Wolfe and to whom he explicitly stated his belief in the reality of pagan gods? Regarding Lilith, yes, James Jordan and Roy Lackey had a discussion of Wolfe's use of this myth in regard to Copperhead about five years ago. Why would his use of Lilith in BotNS be surprising? And at the risk of sounding disrespectful and irreverent I must ask if the admonition to be careful and not over-read also applies to Bible reading ;-)? -bsharp _______________________________________________

James B. Jordan writes regarding the fallen angel origin of the Nephilim:

Nephilim simply means "powerful men" "great rulers,"

but isn't the word also derived from the Hebrew for "fallen"?

On 8/9/06, Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> wrote: Just wanted to throw in there that the idea of fallen angels mating with human females to beget giant children is not really a matter of translation, it's part of Jewish myth that goes back at least as far as the written text.

On 8/9/06, Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> wrote:

Just wanted to throw in there that the idea of fallen angels mating with human females to beget giant children is not really a matter of translation, it's part of Jewish myth that goes back at least as far as the written text.

"At least?" Now, how would we know that? The earliest place such a myth is likely to be documented is in one Talmud, which dates to ... well, depends on whether you're talking about Mishnah or Gemarah, but in any case, well after the time of Christ. Figure the redaction of Genesis at the fourth or fifth century BC, and you've got between six and eight hundred years. Mind, the stuff in the Mishnah was generally considered "ancient" at the time it was compiled, but unless you know of a reference rather older than that, I have trouble with the claim that these myths go "at least as far back as the written text." -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant ----- http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer "Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre. However, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the characters." -- Stephen R. Donaldson _______________________________________________

On 8/9/06, Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> wrote: As you note the stories were regarded as ancient, and with a consistency that tends to indicate an origin that was not recent at the time.

On 8/9/06, Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> wrote: Just wanted to throw in there that the idea of fallen angels mating with human females to beget giant children is not really a matter of translation, it's part of Jewish myth that goes back at least as far as the written text.

On 8/10/06, Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com> wrote: ??? Sorry, The Book of Enoch is older and translated, several versions, online. Sure read to me like giants and the children of men mated.