(no subject)

Gerry Quinn wrote: If all Severian's lovers in BotNS are close relatives, his family would seem to be extraordinarily diverse and geographically dispersed. ?His lovers are spread (so to speak) ?from the slums of Nessus to the Autarch's Palace to villages in the interior and the minor aristocracy of provincial towns. They include pureborn exultants and those who are apparently lowborn, and some who are in between. ?If we include UotNS, we may add a woman from thousands of years in the past, and a female creature not borm on Urth, nor even in Urth's universe. ?But even leaving these two ?aside, the thesis seems improbable to say the least.

Furthermore, apart from Dorcas there is just one woman mentioned in the story whom most agree is plausibly a close relative of Severian's. ?That is Merryn - and there is no indication that Severian has sexual relations with her. ?If Wolfe intended to indicate that Severian's lovers were hidden relatives, leaving Merryn out appears rather bizarre!

On Jan 14, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> wrote: I suspect that Severian's lovers represent the different classes of the Commonwealth, linking him to all of them. Thecla - exultant. Valeria - armiger. Dorcas - optimate. Jolenta - commonalty. Cyriaca - (former) religious. Daria - servant of the throne. Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.) (The first four are explicitly listed as examples of those classes in the appendix to COTC. The others have not yet been introduced.) Thecla's khaibit represents an anomalous group who don't really fit into the classification. Pia represents autochthons, a group which hasn't been highlighted when the classification is given. Gunnie/Burgunadofara can be seen as representing off-Urth humans, and the tall woman was born millions of years before the Commonwealth existed.

From: "Andrew Mason" <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> I suspect that Severian's lovers represent the different classes of the Commonwealth, linking him to all of them. Thecla - exultant. Valeria - armiger. Dorcas - optimate. Jolenta - commonalty. Cyriaca - (former) religious. Daria - servant of the throne. Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.) (The first four are explicitly listed as examples of those classes in the appendix to COTC. The others have not yet been introduced.) Thecla's khaibit represents an anomalous group who don't really fit into the classification. Pia represents autochthons, a group which hasn't been highlighted when the classification is given. Gunnie/Burgunadofara can be seen as representing off-Urth humans, and the tall woman was born millions of years before the Commonwealth existed.

On 1/15/2011 11:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: That seems reasonable, though it could simply be an artefact of Severian's rather extensive... coverage. - Gerry Quinn

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:49 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote: Points for difficulty, but a deduction for trying too hard. (^-^) On 1/15/2011 11:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

That seems reasonable, though it could simply be an artefact of Severian's rather extensive... coverage. - Gerry Quinn

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On 1/15/2011 12:11 PM, Jack Smith wrote: Dorcas did not seem like an optimate to me, since optimates were the "best" people of the Roman republic and Dorcas never struck me as being what we might call upper or upper middle class. What Wolfe says in the appendix is that "optimates appear to be more or less wealthy traders...there are some hints that Dorcas originally belonged to this class." (CotC, appendix) Now that sounds more like it. Dorcas seems somewhat refined (more than Agia) and her father appears to have been successful. But her marriage to the old boatman brought her down in the world economically, and then led to her death. A sad figure.

On 1/14/2011 6:22 PM, Son of Witz wrote: On Jan 14, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Andrew Mason<andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> wrote:

I suspect that Severian's lovers represent the different classes of the Commonwealth, linking him to all of them. Thecla - exultant. Valeria - armiger. Dorcas - optimate. Jolenta - commonalty. Cyriaca - (former) religious. Daria - servant of the throne.

Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.)

VERY interesting. I think you've hit the nail on the head, Andrew. I'd say the Khaibit's are more or less their own class. Enslaved Prostitutes.