Is Agia a Robot?

brunians at brunians.org · 19 Jun 2010, 14:12 · from 2010-June.txt.gz
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From: brunians at brunians.org (brunians at brunians.org)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:12:36 -0400
Subject: (urth) Is Agia a Robot?
In-Reply-To: <4C1CC9EC.9050605 at verizon.net>
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They are the same model, one M, one F.

.


> That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the
> Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.
>
> It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a
> minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology
> (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she
> resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to
> distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has
> not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?
>
> Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common
> sex-doll specs?
>
> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> When has an assassin robot been mentioned?
>>
>> According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.
>>
>> Agia is an oriental robot.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>> Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.
>>>
>>> I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it
>>> than
>>> to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over
>>>> again,
>>>> I
>>>> am on the same page as you.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly
>>>>> created
>>>>> by the gods.
>>>>>
>>>>> (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a
>>>>> shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no
>>>>> reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.
>>>>>
>>>>> There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known
>>>>> principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from
>>>>> plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and
>>>>> directly
>>>>> relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest
>>>>> central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are
>>>>> twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous
>>>>> tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important
>>>>> character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian
>>>>> hottie
>>>>> ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the
>>>>> box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies
>>>>> heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and
>>>>> ties
>>>>> in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching
>>>>> for
>>>>> godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards
>>>>> established differences between robots and humans, because what
>>>>> matters
>>>>> in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an
>>>>> assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is
>>>>> capable
>>>>> of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the
>>>>> above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being
>>>>> Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the
>>>>> gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the
>>>>> aureole around A&A.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to
>>>>>> himself,
>>>>>> but it makes some sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>>>>>> sister in Love.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy
>>>>>> (her
>>>>>> name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> many ways. Together they represent a different path for the
>>>>>> universe,
>>>>>> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new
>>>>>> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in
>>>>>> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and
>>>>>> pseudoincestuous
>>>>>> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll
>>>>>> ninja
>>>>>> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes
>>>>>> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>>>>>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is
>>>>>> specialized
>>>>>> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his
>>>>>> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.
>>>>>> She
>>>>>> met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>>>>>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but
>>>>>> now
>>>>>> she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what
>>>>>> she
>>>>>> can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of
>>>>>> this.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>>>>>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of
>>>>>> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it
>>>>>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>>>>>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>>>>>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be
>>>>>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more
>>>>>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>>>>>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even
>>>>>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules
>>>>>> created?
>>>>>> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were
>>>>>> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less
>>>>>> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the
>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>>>>>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just
>>>>>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>>>>>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>>>>>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>>>>>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>>>>>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler
>>>>>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not
>>>>>> human.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>>>>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is
>>>>>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...ryan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it
>>>>>>>> becomes
>>>>>>>> even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>>>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to
>>>>>>>>>>>> show
>>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater?  Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Adam
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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