Wall of Nessus

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: Despite my recent musings about when and why the Wall of Nessus may have been built, upon further reflection I think I can establish from the text that it antedates both the autarchy and Typhon. Jonas came from an earlier time period and knew far more than Severian about the past. Sev questioned him, when they were in Saltus, about the strange, man-like creatures they had seen when they passed through the Wall. He asked: "When we were going through the Wall, you said the things we saw in there were soldiers, and you implied they had been stationed there to resist Abaia and the others." (CLAW, chap. VIII) Sev wanted to know if the man-apes he saw in the mine were also hybrids like those in the Wall and why the autarchs had not used human soldiers. There follows some debate about that, but it is not germane to my point. Jonas said: "The old autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human soldiers. But the warriors they had created by humanizing animals, and perhaps, in secret by bestializing men, were more loyal. They had to be, since the populace - who hated their rulers - hated these inhuman servitors more still. Thus the servitors could be made to endure things that human soldiers would not. That may have been why they were used in the Wall. Or there may be some other explanation entirely." Regardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the point is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in the Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and those two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall was there before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the purpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans.

That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule." [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 3:11 AM, Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>wrote: On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:

Despite my recent musings about when and why the Wall of Nessus may have been built, upon further reflection I think I can establish from the text that it antedates both the autarchy and Typhon. Jonas came from an earlier time period and knew far more than Severian about the past. Sev questioned him, when they were in Saltus, about the strange, man-like creatures they had seen when they passed through the Wall. He asked: "When we were going through the Wall, you said the things we saw in there were soldiers, and you implied they had been stationed there to resist Abaia and the others." (CLAW, chap. VIII) Sev wanted to know if the man-apes he saw in the mine were also hybrids like those in the Wall and why the autarchs had not used human soldiers. There follows some debate about that, but it is not germane to my point. Jonas said: "The old autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human soldiers. But the warriors they had created by humanizing animals, and perhaps, in secret by bestializing men, were more loyal. They had to be, since the populace - who hated their rulers - hated these inhuman servitors more still. Thus the servitors could be made to endure things that human soldiers would not. That may have been why they were used in the Wall. Or there may be some other explanation entirely." Regardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the point is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in the Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and those two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall was there before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the purpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans.

But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev points out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the size of Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for defense against Abaia et al's human followers.

That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule." [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

That "... in the seas now ..." is an annoying little itch. Of course, in UOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in Typhon's day. _______________________________________________

Andrew quoted and wrote: Regardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the point is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in the Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and those two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall was there before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the purpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans.

But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev points out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the size of Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for defense against Abaia et al's human followers.

That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule." [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

That "... in the seas now ..." is an annoying little itch. Of course, in UOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in Typhon's day.

Josh Caswell wrote: I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders (separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps it is an issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been thought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a minor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea.

On 6/10/2010 4:05 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Josh Caswell wrote:

I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders (separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps it is an issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been thought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a minor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea.

I had the same thought.<g> And an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where there are no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to thwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side of the continent.

On 6/10/2010 4:05 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

Josh Caswell wrote:

I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders (separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps it is an issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been thought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a minor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea.

I had the same thought.<g> And an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where there are no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to thwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side of the continent.

The Wall may have been built to hold back the sea itself; the gate tunnels are easily sealed and presumably big, heavy slabs concealed inside can be driven deep into the river's bed to close the river ingress and egress against the deep water pressure. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On 6/10/2010 4:05 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

Josh Caswell wrote:

I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders (separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps it is an issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been thought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a minor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea.

I had the same thought.<g> And an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where there are no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to thwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side of the continent.

The Wall may have been built to hold back the sea itself; the gate tunnels are easily sealed and presumably big, heavy slabs concealed inside can be driven deep into the river's bed to close the river ingress and egress against the deep water pressure. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On 6/9/2010 2:47 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: That section of text also strongly suggests that the purpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans. That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule." [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

James Wynn quoted and wrote: That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule." [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are powers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort them out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill Reis in AEG.)

Anyway, we know that the monster Scylla at least was around at the time of the Whorl's launch, because Typhon's daughter conspired with it against her father.

On 6/10/2010 11:53 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Probably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at least as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. Anyone who could build the Whorl and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem soldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if they were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to him.

The Wall of Nessus just doesn't make much sense, no matter who built it, or when or why. I think it is one of those things that just have to be accepted for the sake of the story, like FTL spaceships, time corridors, ghosts and spirit travel.

But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object.

But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object.

Well let's face it this is Wolfe we are talking about, perhaps it is just a metaphor to show the separation of Nessus (and by that measure Severian) from the rest of Urth as all the scattered places are separated from one another. I doubt he just meant it to be there just to be there. _______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: I like the idea of a flood wall. Of course, I would. .

But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object.

Well let's face it this is Wolfe we are talking about, perhaps it is just a metaphor to show the separation of Nessus (and by that measure Severian) from the rest of Urth as all the scattered places are separated from one another. I doubt he just meant it to be there just to be there. _______________________________________________

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> James Wynn quoted and wrote:

I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are powers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort them out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill Reis in AEG.)

Probably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at least as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. Anyone who could build the Whorl and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem soldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if they were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to him.

From: gerryq at indigo.ie To: urth at lists.urth.net Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:36:02 +0100 Subject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> James Wynn quoted and wrote:

I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are powers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort them out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill Reis in AEG.)

Probably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at least as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. Anyone who could build the Whorl and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem soldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if they were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to him.

I agree - the sea monsters may have great powers, but we clearly know that Typhon was concerned with other issues. If he was beleaguered by Abaia, Erebus and Co., he would hardly have devoted resources to building the Whorl. And we know from his own words that the crisis he faced was the rapid diminution of light and heat from the Sun. Oddly enough, none of this stuff has been an issue for me - perhaps because I don;t read carefully enough. in the first place, I totally don't remember the "now" in "powers in the sea", and in the second, I never got the impression that the wall was so enormous. I don't remember seeing any figures, but I always imagined it as maybe ten metres thick and twenty high. - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

On 6/11/2010 7:31 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: The flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their presence or their location) in Severian's day.

...after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule. [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are powers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort them out tout de suite.

Probably so.[snip] Anyone who could build the_Whorl_ and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem soldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if they were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to him.

Anyway, we know that the monster Scylla at least was around at the time of the Whorl's launch, because Typhon's daughter conspired with it against her father.

Yeah, but that may have involved a little retrofitting.

Jeff Wilson wrote: Do we know for sure that Typhon built the Whorl, or did he appropriate it the way he did everything else on Urth when he set up his capital there?

David Stockhoff wrote: The flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their presence or their location) in Severian's day.

One thing has not been addressed. Presumably there has been social and political decay since Typhon's time, as the Commonwealth shrank from near-global (correct?) to almost a city-state. This is all you really need to know to explain the Wall and the curtain wall, whether one approaches it from a rational or a thematic perspective. The identity of a few individual enemies is not important; the people and aristocracy of the Commonwealth, such as they are, have always been at least potential enemies of the state. Typhon was probably at least somewhat paranoid anyway.

The Wall suggests ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and Byzantium; therefore it is intended to suggest ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and Byzantium, pointing both to Earth's future/deep past and to its historical counterpart(s).

Gerry Quinn wrote: Oddly enough, none of this stuff has been an issue for me - perhaps because I don;t read carefully enough. in the first place, I totally don't remember the "now" in "powers in the sea", and in the second, I never got the impression that the wall was so enormous. I don't remember seeing any figures, but I always imagined it as maybe ten metres thick and twenty high.

Tons of wall stuff

The flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their presence or their location) in Severian's day.

Right. Not to mention that it failed to stop the flood.<g> And what mighty ruler in the distant past knew of and desired to attempt to thwart a massive future flood?

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: Andrew quoted and wrote:

Regardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the point is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in the Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and those two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall was there before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the purpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans.

But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev points out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the size of Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for defense against Abaia et al's human followers.

Jonas said: "You were correct when you said Erebus and Abaia are as great as mountains, and I admit that I was surprised you knew it. Most people lack the imagination to conceive of anything so large, and think them no bigger than houses or ships. Their actual size is so great that while they remain on this world they can never leave the water - their own weight would crush them. You mustn't think of them battering at the Wall with their fists, or tossing boulders about. But by their thoughts they enlist servants, and they fling them against all rules that rival their own."

I don't know if the sea monsters grew bigger over the years, as Baldanders did, so that they weren't so large when the Wall was first built that it would be useless against them, or if the Wall was effective only against man-sized foes under their control. Either way, the point I wanted to make is that Jonas's statements seem to indicate that the Wall was built before Typhon's time, and its purpose was to thwart the sea monsters' ambitions.

That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule." [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

That "... in the seas now ..." is an annoying little itch. Of course, in UOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in Typhon's day.

Yeah, annoying, and Cyriaca's story about the founding of the library, together with what that doctor who looked Sev over after he got zapped by that big gun had to say ("This coast is quake prone, as the old records indicate clearly enough--praise to our monarch, by the way, for having them brought here--" [URTH, 259] ), suggest that Typhon was the ruler who caused the curtain wall to be built around the collected writings, and the curtain wall is made of the same material as the Wall. -Roy _______________________________________________

Mr Thalassocrat wrote: Just on a different tack, I think it's easy to miss what Jonas' actually meant to explain in his interrupted story at the gate. I think it was clearly offered in answer to Sev's question to Talos about why the half-beast guards in the wall, not about the existence of the wall itself. Jonas starts on his story, explaining that the citadel was built in the olden days by the rulers of Urth to protect themselves against the populace. Some people then left Urth to go amongst the stars, eventually returning. One woman came back with magic seeds, defied the rulers and on being condemned by them, cast the seeds the sea. The chaos at the gate prevents Jonas from finishing. (I think I've remembered all of that correctly.) So how would have Jonas' story ended? Presumably the casting of the seeds leads to the presence of Abaia et al. How does that in turn lead to the man-beasts? My guess goes like this: Abaia et al suborned some of the populace; the rulers could trust nobody; they created the man-beasts as creatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the lure of Abaia etc. FWIW.

Andrew wrote: Just on a different tack, I think it's easy to miss what Jonas' actually meant to explain in his interrupted story at the gate. I think it was clearly offered in answer to Sev's question to Talos about why the half-beast guards in the wall, not about the existence of the wall itself. Jonas starts on his story, explaining that the citadel was built in the olden days by the rulers of Urth to protect themselves against the populace. Some people then left Urth to go amongst the stars, eventually returning. One woman came back with magic seeds, defied the rulers and on being condemned by them, cast the seeds the sea. The chaos at the gate prevents Jonas from finishing. (I think I've remembered all of that correctly.)

So how would have Jonas' story ended? Presumably the casting of the seeds leads to the presence of Abaia et al. How does that in turn lead to the man-beasts? My guess goes like this: Abaia et al suborned some of the populace; the rulers could trust nobody; they created the man-beasts as creatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the lure of Abaia etc.

On 6/14/2010 2:13 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Okay so far. The Citadel was built to defend against the people. But that doesn't explain the Wall. In Severian's time, most of the Commonwealth's population seems to live inside the area circumscribed by the Wall. Uncounted millions, anyway, so clearly the Wall was not intended to keep the people away from the rulers in the Citadel at the center of the circular walled city. It was intended to keep something out of the city.

Roy C. Lackey wrote: Okay so far. The Citadel was built to defend against the people. But that doesn't explain the Wall. In Severian's time, most of the Commonwealth's population seems to live inside the area circumscribed by the Wall. Uncounted millions, anyway, so clearly the Wall was not intended to keep the people away from the rulers in the Citadel at the center of the circular walled city. It was intended to keep something out of the city.

On 6/13/2010 9:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote: If the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the pale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south, necessitating complete enclosure.

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and a few thousand long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.

The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and a few thousand long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.

At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of ordinary height and Severian made a typo.

On 6/14/2010 8:35 AM, James Wynn wrote: Someone recently mentioned this quote by Severian: "No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was no more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the glass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit." SHADOW XXXV What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

On 6/14/2010 8:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:

Someone recently mentioned this quote by Severian: "No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was no more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the glass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit." SHADOW XXXV What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

There's a distance-to-horizon calculator here: http://boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm a 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles. Perhaps league has an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been up late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as three furlongs instead of three miles? A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be visible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a day. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On 6/14/2010 7:58 AM, James Wynn wrote: On 6/13/2010 9:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

If the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the pale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south, necessitating complete enclosure.

"I asked who they are, Sieur. I know they're our enemies, that they live to the north in the hot countries, and that they're said to be enslaved by Erebus. But who are they?" CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH (CHAP XXV) Although the Ascians come from the North and Erebus is based in Antarctica, they are actually the minions of Erebus. Their name means "casting no shadow". They cast no shadow NOT because they are from the Equator (which they are not, or at least not entirely), but because they are from Erebus, whose name comes from the Greek elemental Titan who was "The Darkness of the Underworld".

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: On 6/14/2010 7:58 AM, James Wynn wrote:

On 6/13/2010 9:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

If the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the pale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south, necessitating complete enclosure.

"I asked who they are, Sieur. I know they're our enemies, that they live to the north in the hot countries, and that they're said to be enslaved by Erebus. But who are they?" CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH (CHAP XXV) Although the Ascians come from the North and Erebus is based in Antarctica, they are actually the minions of Erebus. Their name means "casting no shadow". They cast no shadow NOT because they are from the Equator (which they are not, or at least not entirely), but because they are from Erebus, whose name comes from the Greek elemental Titan who was "The Darkness of the Underworld".

Abaia and Erebus are mentioned as if in league together on several occasions. Perhaps Abaia is the slightly humanlike of the two who marshals the more humanoid forces of the Ascians and undines to pursue Erebus' strategies. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On 6/14/2010 10:16 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: a 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles. Perhaps league has an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been up late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as three furlongs instead of three miles? A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be visible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a day.

Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote: At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and a few thousand long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.

Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of ordinary height and Severian made a typo.

James Wynn wrote: What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

I presumed that Wolfe would use the "Roman" league which is 2.22 km or 1.4 miles. It's still to tall for "several leagues".

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote:

At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and a few thousand long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.

Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of ordinary height and Severian made a typo.

It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height (clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater troupe got to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it. James Wynn wrote:

What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on scattered comments in the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2. And later:

I presumed that Wolfe would use the "Roman" league which is 2.22 km or 1.4 miles. It's still to tall for "several leagues".

FWIW, in an appendix to CLAW, Wolfe said that his use of league means a distance of "about three miles". -Roy _______________________________________________

On 6/14/2010 1:12 PM, Jack Smith wrote: A 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the sun was rising or setting.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:13 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: On 6/14/2010 1:12 PM, Jack Smith wrote:

A 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the sun was rising or setting.

True, but any mountain range would technically do the same thing. _______________________________________________

Jack Smith wrote: A 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the sun was rising or setting. On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net <mailto:rclackey at stic.net>> wrote: Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote: > > At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on > > The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and a few > > thousand > > long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object. > > Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of > ordinary height and Severian made a typo. It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height (clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater troupe got to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it. James Wynn wrote: > What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height > to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level? Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on scattered comments in the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2. And later: > I presumed that Wolfe would use the "Roman" league which is 2.22 km or > 1.4 miles. It's still to tall for "several leagues". FWIW, in an appendix to CLAW, Wolfe said that his use of league means a distance of "about three miles". -Roy _______________________________________________

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: On 6/14/2010 8:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:

Someone recently mentioned this quote by Severian: "No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was no more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the glass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit." SHADOW XXXV What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

There's a distance-to-horizon calculator here: http://boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm a 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles. Perhaps league has an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been up late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as three furlongs instead of three miles? A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be visible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a day.

On 6/14/2010 8:38 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote: This is where I get to. Sev says that the highest flying birds such as eagles, wild geese etc might be able to fly over the wall, or something like that. Wikipedia trawling suggests a Wall height of something less than 25,000ft. This is about the minimum height consistent with "several leagues", even for a 1.5 mile league.

At 25,000ft the Wall peeps over the horizon at a distance of about 200 miles, for somebody at sea level. For somebody at the top of a (say) 300ft torturers' tower, it's around 175 miles.

If the Wall is "only" a mile high, then it's maybe 75 miles or so from the Citadel, and ~20 miles per day seems kind of reasonable.

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: At 25,000ft the Wall peeps over the horizon at a distance of about 200 miles, for somebody at sea level. For somebody at the top of a (say)

300ft torturers' tower, it's around 175 miles.

If the Wall is "only" a mile high, then it's maybe 75 miles or so from the Citadel, and ~20 miles per day seems kind of reasonable.

The increased vantage height of the towers should let the Wall be visible from farther away, rather than constraining the distance closer.

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote:

At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and a few thousand long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.

Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of ordinary height and Severian made a typo.

It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height (clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater troupe got to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it.

James Wynn wrote:

What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on scattered comments in the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2.

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time, and eagles are endangered even today.

There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps from Exultants overhunting them from flyers.

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>

Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time, and eagles are endangered even today.

Fortunately, this last is not true in general. The bald eagle, golden eagle, and white-tailed eagle (the widespread species in the cooler parts of the northern hemisphere) are all rated as Least Concern by the IUCN, though populations of all of them have been reduced or eliminated in some places, and the bald eagle was listed as endangered in the lower 48 for a number of years. There a few endangered eagle species, many of them restricted to islands, but I can't find a good list. The Commonwealth has teratorns, which are much bigger than eagles and should naturally be much rarer, so I'd think it has eagles.

There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps from Exultants overhunting them from flyers.

A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier. I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>

Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time, and eagles are endangered even today.

Fortunately, this last is not true in general. The bald eagle, golden eagle, and white-tailed eagle (the widespread species in the cooler parts of the northern hemisphere) are all rated as Least Concern by the IUCN, though populations of all of them have been reduced or eliminated in some places, and the bald eagle was listed as endangered in the lower 48 for a number of years. There a few endangered eagle species, many of them restricted to islands, but I can't find a good list. The Commonwealth has teratorns, which are much bigger than eagles and should naturally be much rarer, so I'd think it has eagles.

There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps from Exultants overhunting them from flyers.

A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier. I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On 6/14/2010 11:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier. I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>

On 6/14/2010 11:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier.

I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.

That's at odds with Wolfe's worldiews and other stories from the period, like "Beautyland". He considered/considers non-Christian societies to be tainted and > given to cruelty, and we know exultant debutantes like their kicks vicious. They already have to keep the flyers tethered way up there, what fun to throw some > bread out the hatch until you've got lots of the buggers waiting to be zapped.

Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars,

and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

On 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars,

There's more than one war?

and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.

It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.

On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars,

There's more than one war?

Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3.

and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.

It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them.

It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.

There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical power, assuming the weapons require it. Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food, and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as geese while spying for the enemy. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier... "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of the Universe")

Ryan Dunn wrote: Mmm. A sooty drumstick sounds delicious. So does an ice cream drumstick. Sorry to bounce back for a moment here, but... I've always felt the wall, as described in UotNS, was quite implausible as well. Using UotNS's quote as canon, Wall of Nessus = 9 miles high by 9,000 miles long. The stratosphere is about 12 miles up. So 9 miles up is consistent with birds not being able to fly over it (highest bird flight on Earth was a vulture recorded at 7 miles up), but makes for a really hard sell visually. Also, at 9,000 miles in length, if the Wall were unwrapped it would encompass more than 1/3 of our Earth at the equator. Another reference... the entirety of Texas's border equals only 3,800 miles. And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier... "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of the Universe") ...ryan On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars,

There's more than one war?

Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3.

and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.

It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them.

It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.

There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical power, assuming the weapons require it. Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food, and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as geese while spying for the enemy. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: So it's truly a Big Object. But how Dumb is it? That's the question ...

On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: So it's truly a Big Object. But how Dumb is it? That's the question ...

On Jun 16, 2010, at 1:06 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: The discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all of at least 3 categories: Unintentional error (oops!) Conscious error (So what? It sounds cool.) Intentional error (Bwa ha ha!) Only the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does either one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation? Truly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different. --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus

I guess, in the words of Thecla... "One can't found a novel theology on Nothing, and nothing is so secure a foundation as a contradiction." Big dumb wall, after all? ...ryan On Jun 16, 2010, at 1:06 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:

The discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all of at least 3 categories: Unintentional error (oops!) Conscious error (So what? It sounds cool.) Intentional error (Bwa ha ha!) Only the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does either one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation? Truly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different. --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus

On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier... "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of the Universe")

And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth of air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's just no consistent detail on the size of the Wall.

On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier... "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of the Universe")

And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth of air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's just no consistent detail on the size of the Wall.

I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which we have generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has moved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in the past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of Severian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected historian and "G.W." is caught up in it as well. This could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a factor of 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement that G.W. has chosen to translate as "league" has different meanings or different idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the ground, or for vertical height vs length. (It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's gravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In fact, the low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for being largely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.) -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On Jun 17, 2010, at 2:03 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: This is like pretend for you people? I don't understand this phenomenon. .

On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier... "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of the Universe")

And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth of air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's just no consistent detail on the size of the Wall.

I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which we have generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has moved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in the past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of Severian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected historian and "G.W." is caught up in it as well. This could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a factor of 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement that G.W. has chosen to translate as "league" has different meanings or different idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the ground, or for vertical height vs length. (It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's gravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In fact, the low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for being largely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.) -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

I think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is quite a present part of the text, no? Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 2:03 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

This is like pretend for you people? I don't understand this phenomenon. .

On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier... "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of the Universe")

And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth of air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's just no consistent detail on the size of the Wall.

I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which we have generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has moved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in the past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of Severian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected historian and "G.W." is caught up in it as well. This could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a factor of 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement that G.W. has chosen to translate as "league" has different meanings or different idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the ground, or for vertical height vs length. (It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's gravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In fact, the low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for being largely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.) -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On 6/17/2010 1:06 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: I think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is quite a present part of the text, no? Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part.

On 6/17/2010 1:54 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks? ...ryan_______________________________________________

On 6/17/2010 1:54 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Perhaps she has a plate in her head? Sev's comments on Jonas indicate that functional prosthetics are not particularly remarkable in the Commonwealth. Or she could just have a sturdy, thick skull that makes a dull clicking noise like this mason's hammer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_LAumupL2U&feature=related -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

Ryan Dunn wrote: I guess, in the words of Thecla... "One can't found a novel theology on Nothing, and nothing is so secure a foundation as a contradiction." Big dumb wall, after all? ...ryan On Jun 16, 2010, at 1:06 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:

The discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all of at least 3 categories: Unintentional error (oops!) Conscious error (So what? It sounds cool.) Intentional error (Bwa ha ha!) Only the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does either one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation? Truly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different. --- On *Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn /<ryan at liftingfaces.com <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com>>/* wrote: From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com>> Subject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 10:21 AM Forgive me if this hasbeen asked, but was it needed to keep out Typhon? Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to cause harm? I can't reimagine a scenario where a 9 mile high wall would be critical to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked the idea of a 9 mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at immigration reform. ...ryan On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: > So it's truly a Big Object. > > But how Dumb is it? That's the question ... _______________________________________________

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> On 6/17/2010 1:06 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

I think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is quite a present part of the text, no? Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part.

The notional translator of the BotNS signs his notes at the end of Volume I as "G.W." G.W. is a fictional Gene Wolfe, very similar to but much less informed than the author. This allows the author additional license to feint > and mislead with errors from an unreviewed and in fact unreviewable translation to compound those of an unreliable narrator.

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman ? ? _______________________________________________

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her... On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:19 PM, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com> wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her... On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: What's ridiculous? I always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless of the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, "The sound of her head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone"? Head = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, is the only open question. Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her... On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) ? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? ? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman ? ?_______________________________________________

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> On 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars,

There's more than one war?

Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3.

and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.

It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them.

From a mile away from ground zero, a goose 4000 feet up would be well over the horizon, as you point out, but pretty much invisible.

It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.

There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical power,

assuming the weapons require it.

Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food,

and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as geese while spying for the enemy.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: I am reminded of some things Alan Moore said about Watchmen when it was first coming out. The first thing he said was that everything in Watchmen means something. The second thing, upon seeing the detailed analysis being performed in the fan press and especially on the Intartoobs, was "...but not everything means much." I suspect that we are often guilty of overanalyzing details in Wolfe's work. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

What's ridiculous? I always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless of the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, "The sound of her head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone"? Head = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, is the only open question. Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her... On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On 6/17/2010 10:33 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote: Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human --

she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her...

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman ? ? _______________________________________________

What's ridiculous? I always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless of the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, "The sound of her head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone"? Head = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, is the only open question. Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her... On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

I am reminded of some things Alan Moore said about Watchmen when it was first coming out. The first thing he said was that everything in Watchmen means something. The second thing, upon seeing the detailed analysis being performed in the fan press and especially on the Intartoobs, was "...but not everything means much." I suspect that we are often guilty of overanalyzing details in Wolfe's work. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

What's ridiculous? I always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless of the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, "The sound of her head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone"? Head = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, is the only open question. Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her... On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) ? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? ? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman ? ?_______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human --

Why?

she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her...

Oh, that's funny. Dude. .

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:18 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: Dan'l has a point: the principle of twincest must be satisfied. But I think the fact that Agia and Agilus are twins already does that. Also, if I recall correctly, the two each pretended to be the other. Therefore, in a fuzzy way, Severian was attracted to both of them, thus linking him sexually with the "(un)holy" pair. What else is needed? brunians at brunians.org wrote:

This is getting ridiculous. Agila must be human --

Why?

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?she has to be related to Severian -- after all, he's sexually attracted to her...

Oh, that's funny. Dude. .

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head of hair. I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask. Anywho. ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head? It does not sound like the description. .

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off... "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer." (Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus) ? ? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think? ? ? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound. Jerry Friedman ? ?_______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. Agia was the girl in the box. . _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote: I'm lost. The girl in the box? On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. Agia was the girl in the box. . _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote: Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:

I'm lost. The girl in the box? On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. Agia was the girl in the box. . _______________________________________________

On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote: I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus / could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote: Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com wrote:

I'm lost. The girl in the box? On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. Agia was the girl in the box. . _______________________________________________

Ryan Dunn wrote: Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no? ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com <mailto:pb.stuff at gmail.com>> wrote:

I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com <mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote: Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com <mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com>> wrote: > I'm lost. The girl in the box? > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>> wrote: >> >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. >> >> Agia was the girl in the box. >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________

Brunians wrote: She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor. They are ship's robots.

Tony Ellis wrote: Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But she was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her robofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop: She wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness, and as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold. TSOTT, chapter XVI Dorcas is also a robot: 'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a shirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a bell. TSOTT, chapter XXVII Bells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you need? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that he is a robot too. Brunians wrote:

She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor. They are ship's robots.

That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut Agilus's head off. _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no? ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote: I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes < <danldo at gmail.com> danldo at gmail.com> wrote:

Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <<john.watkins04 at gmail.com> john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:

I'm lost. The girl in the box? On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, < <brunians at brunians.org> brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. Agia was the girl in the box. . _______________________________________________

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

Are Agila and Agia sex robots?

Ryan Dunn wrote: Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no? ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com <mailto:pb.stuff at gmail.com>> wrote:

I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com <mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote: Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com <mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com>> wrote: > I'm lost. The girl in the box? > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>> wrote: >> >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. >> >> Agia was the girl in the box.

I'm lost. The girl in the box? On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. Agia was the girl in the box. . _______________________________________________

I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:

Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:

I'm lost. The girl in the box? On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. Agia was the girl in the box. . _______________________________________________

Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But she was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her robofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop: She wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness, and as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold. TSOTT, chapter XVI Dorcas is also a robot: 'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a shirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a bell. TSOTT, chapter XXVII Bells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you need? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that he is a robot too. Brunians wrote:

She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor. They are ship's robots.

That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut Agilus's head off. _______________________________________________

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

[...]

Are Agila and Agia sex robots?

Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features revealed by decapitating Agilus. He mentions blood, though. And since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia looks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister. Also, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of /Shadow/). That would be real attention to detail in a robot. People suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita. However, Severian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no? ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com <mailto:pb.stuff at gmail.com>> wrote:

I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com <mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote: Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com <mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com>> wrote: > I'm lost. The girl in the box? > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>> wrote: >> >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. >> >> Agia was the girl in the box.

_______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: And your point? Chems. Not mechs. .

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

[...]

Are Agila and Agia sex robots?

Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features revealed by decapitating Agilus. He mentions blood, though. And since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia looks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister. Also, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of /Shadow/). That would be real attention to detail in a robot. People suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita. However, Severian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no? ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com <mailto:pb.stuff at gmail.com>> wrote:

I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com <mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote: Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com <mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com>> wrote: > I'm lost. The girl in the box? > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>> wrote: >> >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. >> >> Agia was the girl in the box.

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The word "robot" should probably be abandoned completely. Wolfe's characters are simply either made or born, although there's probably an important distinction between cloned and manufactured. And the Translator tells us that the word "metal" doesn't always mean metal. Would Severian know the difference? However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and blood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and flow differently. Severian would notice. Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, one a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed twins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

And your point? Chems. Not mechs. .

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

[...]

Are Agila and Agia sex robots?

Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features revealed by decapitating Agilus. He mentions blood, though. And since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia looks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister. Also, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of /Shadow/). That would be real attention to detail in a robot. People suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita. However, Severian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no? ...ryan On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com <mailto:pb.stuff at gmail.com>> wrote:

I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so. Paul On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com <mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote: Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com <mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com>> wrote: > I'm lost. The girl in the box? > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>> wrote: >> >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots. >> >> Agia was the girl in the box.

_______________________________________________

Brunians wrote: Gene calls robots 'chems'.

Does he call them that because they are mechanical?

Brunians wrote:

Gene calls robots 'chems'.

Does he call them that because they are mechanical?

"Chems are wonderful constructions, a race that we bios created long ago, our own image in metal and synthetics." LOTLS, chapter seven. "No, no." Maytera Marble's one functioning hand gripped the arm of her chair so tightly that the upholstery rose like dough between its metal fingers. EFTLL, chapter five Auk was peering at the mass of mechanisms the plate had concealed. "I see little specks of light." Incus was triumphant. "...His primary cable has been severed, and those are the ends of the fibres." COTLS, chapter two _______________________________________________

I did not remember that reference. Thanks. It does not

We used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the service. That is because it is red, very much in the way blood is red. There is a very slight difference

I don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as difficult an act as a public execution with the attention to detail that Severian brings to everything he does.

However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and blood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and flow differently. Severian would notice.

Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, one a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed twins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people.

On Jun 18, 2010, at 12:11 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote: From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org> [quotations on chems from BotLS]

I did not remember that reference. Thanks. It does not nullify my hypothesis.

Here are two more: "'It's not just reuniting the metal, Patera. There are little tubes in there, tiny tubes, and wires, and things like threads--fibers, they're called--that pipe light.'" EftLS, Ch. 2 "... he took off the white towel that had covered her [Maytera Marble's] now-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an elderly woman. A short cylinder of silvery metal extended from its wrist. 'I lost some fluid,' she told him, 'but not very much. There are valves and things to control that...." [Marble holds her stump up. Swallow tells her] "'Pretend that you're going to grab hold of my nose.' "Minute glimmerings appeared in the shadowy interior of the stump of arm, pinpoint gleams...." EftLS, Ch. 7 I think these make your hypothesis very hard to sustain. If Agilus were a chem built like Marble, his neck would probably have been sheathed in metal and would certainly have contained wires, tubes, and optical fibers, not flesh and bone. This would have done /Terminus Est/ no good and would surely have felt and looked different from cutting through a human neck. Maybe there was another kind of robot. But I doubt very much someone would make robots with necks that acted just like human necks when cut, but with skulls that sounded different when banged into stone walls.

We used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the service. That is because it is red, very much in the way blood is red. There is a very slight difference in color.

The fluid that spurts out of a Vironese soldier when Mint severs its leg with an azoth is black, by the way (CotLS, Ch. 9).

I don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as difficult an act as a public execution with the attention to detail that Severian brings to everything he does.

Severian makes a general remark in that scene about how a well-done beheading feels to the headsman. I take that to mean he felt nothing different about Agilus's head. And see below. From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> [...]

However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and blood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and flow differently. Severian would notice.

He also cleans his boots. By that time the blood would have at least started to clot, and he'd have leisure to notice its texture and smell, since he'd no longer be focused on bringing off the execution. He must have cleaned /Terminus Est/, too. Also, the blood frightened the baggage sumpter (presumably a horse), which would have been by smell, not color.

Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, one a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed twins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people.

Agilus was the heir of an optimate and impoverished himself by having a sexbot made to look like a female version of him or like his real sister. No, I don't believe it. And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone. He said it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing. It's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have this theory in mind. "Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare shoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh." (/Claw/, C. VIII) There are a couple other examples like that. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On 6/18/2010 12:34 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: Or what about: Agilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone.

Also, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and strange maplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down Severian's orichalk? "When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know."

Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together face-to-face? "Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to unite them." "He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before."

From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org> [quotations on chems from BotLS]

I did not remember that reference. Thanks. It does not nullify my hypothesis.

Here are two more: "'It's not just reuniting the metal, Patera. There are little tubes in there, tiny tubes, and wires, and things like threads--fibers, they're called--that pipe light.'" EftLS, Ch. 2 "... he took off the white towel that had covered her [Maytera Marble's] now-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an elderly woman. A short cylinder of silvery metal extended from its wrist. 'I lost some fluid,' she told him, 'but not very much. There are valves and things to control that...." [Marble holds her stump up. Swallow tells her] "'Pretend that you're going to grab hold of my nose.' "Minute glimmerings appeared in the shadowy interior of the stump of arm, pinpoint gleams...." EftLS, Ch. 7 I think these make your hypothesis very hard to sustain. If Agilus were a chem built like Marble, his neck would probably have been sheathed in metal and would certainly have contained wires, tubes, and optical fibers, not flesh and bone. This would have done /Terminus Est/ no good and would surely have felt and looked different from cutting through a human neck. Maybe there was another kind of robot. But I doubt very much someone would make robots with necks that acted just like human necks when cut, but with skulls that sounded different when banged into stone walls.

We used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the service. That is because it is red, very much in the way blood is red. There is a very slight difference in color.

The fluid that spurts out of a Vironese soldier when Mint severs its leg with an azoth is black, by the way (CotLS, Ch. 9).

I don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as difficult an act as a public execution with the attention to detail that Severian brings to everything he does.

Severian makes a general remark in that scene about how a well-done beheading feels to the headsman. I take that to mean he felt nothing different about Agilus's head. And see below. From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> [...]

However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and blood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and flow differently. Severian would notice.

He also cleans his boots. By that time the blood would have at least started to clot, and he'd have leisure to notice its texture and smell, since he'd no longer be focused on bringing off the execution. He must have cleaned /Terminus Est/, too. Also, the blood frightened the baggage sumpter (presumably a horse), which would have been by smell, not color.

Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, one a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed twins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people.

Agilus was the heir of an optimate and impoverished himself by having a sexbot made to look like a female version of him or like his real sister. No, I don't believe it. And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone. He said it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing. It's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have this theory in mind. "Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare shoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh." (/Claw/, C. VIII) There are a couple other examples like that. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On 6/18/2010 12:34 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: Or what about: Agilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone.

Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

Also, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and strange maplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down Severian's orichalk? "When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know."

This sounds very much like some folk magic, suggesting Agia is part of a mystery cult.

Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together face-to-face? "Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to unite them." "He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in > the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an > aureole a few moments before."

The aureaole is the scattering of the bright sunlight by someone's backlit hair, giving a halo effect. Here is a similar effect with a kitty: http://media.photobucket.com/image/backlit%20afro/caitlinjean/backlit-1.jpg http://preview.tinyurl.com/29jlag7 -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:11 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: Gene calls robots 'chems'. Does he call them that because they are mechanical? .

Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But she was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her robofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop: She wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness, and as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold. TSOTT, chapter XVI Dorcas is also a robot: 'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a shirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a bell. TSOTT, chapter XXVII Bells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you need? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that he is a robot too. Brunians wrote:

She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor. They are ship's robots.

That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut Agilus's head off. _______________________________________________

... or because they are chemical? On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:11 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

Gene calls robots 'chems'. Does he call them that because they are mechanical? .

Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But she was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her robofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop: She wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness, and as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold. TSOTT, chapter XVI Dorcas is also a robot: 'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a shirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a bell. TSOTT, chapter XXVII Bells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you need? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that he is a robot too. Brunians wrote:

She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor. They are ship's robots.

That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut Agilus's head off. _______________________________________________

On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote: ... or because they are chemical?

On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:

... or because they are chemical?

FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a chemical process. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:57 AM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever. I think this theory is gaining and not losing strength.

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

Ryan Dunn wrote: Or what about: Agilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone. Also, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and strange maplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down Severian's orichalk? "When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know." Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together face-to-face? "Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to unite them." "He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before." It's all probably trivial for some, but I find these two characters unsettlingly important to the series for some reason, and wish I could better understand their weirdness. ...ryan

Jeff Wilson wrote: Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together face-to-face? "Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to unite them." "He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before."

The aureaole is the scattering of the bright sunlight by someone's backlit hair, giving a halo effect. Here is a similar effect with a kitty: http://media.photobucket.com/image/backlit%20afro/caitlinjean/backlit-1.jpg http://preview.tinyurl.com/29jlag7

brunians at brunians.org wrote: So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever. I think this theory is gaining and not losing strength. .

On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:

... or because they are chemical?

FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a chemical process. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

Is this better, dude? :) To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least. The folk magic angle would play nicely with the aep-men in the mines, I guess. And @brunians, I agree That Agia and Agilus are different from Jonas if they are indeed robotic. In any case, I just don't feel like they are humans, that's as simple as I can state it. Something far too "off" about them both. ...ryan _______________________________________________

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." " He faced this problem with Long Sun, where robotness was known and accepted as part of what is not hidden (the local world created by the local archon). With New Sun, he did not face this problem, because he said instead, "I will not refer to robots at all; they are hidden." On Urth, they are part of the Outside, not the Inside. And yet both universes are full of robots, half-robots, future robots, former robots, humans on their way to becoming robots/robots becoming humans. Perhaps the halo around Agia and Agilus is a blessing of a union between bot and human as much as man and woman. Furthermore, I read robots as being almost blasphemous in their unnaturalness, plainly the work of an inferior Creator, although not at all evil. It's a small step from there to sexbots, which are already available in Japan. (In fact, I can't think of anything more perfectly blasphemous than a pair of sexy male/female twins mating and creating a race of superbots. Dr Who would have stopped them in the nick of time; Severian would kill them. Perhaps Severian's story is in part a record of his stopping various potential future histories so that only one remains.) Recall that Tolkien made a big deal of explaining that Sauron and his predecessor could not create life, only twist it. Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots? brunians at brunians.org wrote:

So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever. I think this theory is gaining and not losing strength. .

On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:

... or because they are chemical?

FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a chemical process. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." " He faced this problem with Long Sun, where robotness was known and accepted as part of what is not hidden (the local world created by the local archon). With New Sun, he did not face this problem, because he said instead, "I will not refer to robots at all; they are hidden." On Urth, they are part of the Outside, not the Inside. And yet both universes are full of robots, half-robots, future robots, former robots, humans on their way to becoming robots/robots becoming humans. Perhaps the halo around Agia and Agilus is a blessing of a union between bot and human as much as man and woman. Furthermore, I read robots as being almost blasphemous in their unnaturalness, plainly the work of an inferior Creator, although not at all evil. It's a small step from there to sexbots, which are already available in Japan. (In fact, I can't think of anything more perfectly blasphemous than a pair of sexy male/female twins mating and creating a race of superbots. Dr Who would have stopped them in the nick of time; Severian would kill them. Perhaps Severian's story is in part a record of his stopping various potential future histories so that only one remains.) Recall that Tolkien made a big deal of explaining that Sauron and his predecessor could not create life, only twist it. Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots? brunians at brunians.org wrote:

So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever. I think this theory is gaining and not losing strength. .

On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:

... or because they are chemical?

FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a chemical process. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On Jun 18, 2010, at 10:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: I agree with you, Ryan. I like my idea that Agia was Hethor's paracoita, and that Agilus was something like that - a paracoitus.

On Jun 18, 2010, at 10:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: It's one of Hethor's rants, where he goes on and on about his paracoita.

Jerry Friedman wrote: From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

.... That sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?

Brunians is probably on of the last people in the world I should speak for, but Hethor's lost paracoita is some kind of robot (/Shadow/, Ch. XXX). Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say. As for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).

Ryan Dunn wrote: "M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not chosen instead to lie with me." (Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night) . And it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following passages.... . "Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him." (Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens) . "Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her to do it sooner." (Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus) . "...you were trying to kill me before Saltus." "With the avern. Yes, of course." "And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is." I waited for her to reply, but she said nothing. "On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not understand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and a little money coming in from the shop." It was my turn to be surprised. She said, "I should have gone to him and mastered him. I have mastered him now." (Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . ...ryan

Ryan Dunn wrote: You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had irises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia. Agia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters, when he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say. As for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).

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On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: Ah, that explains what I wondered about a minute ago: Hethor controlled her with monsters. Anyway, while I don't know why Agia would change her eye color, I don't see why she couldn't ... IF she is a paracoita. Possibly she changed her color to purple for Hethor, then changed it to evade him. And doesn't go back because it is after all an unnatural color.

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: So we have a sex doll who was pliant, was apparently stolen, then found, but she now seeks and gains control of her owner. Who stole her? Who "woke" her? Agilus?

"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not chosen instead to lie with me." (Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night) . And it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following passages.... . "Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him." (Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens) . "Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her to do it sooner." (Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus) . "...you were trying to kill me before Saltus." "With the avern. Yes, of course." "And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is." I waited for her to reply, but she said nothing. "On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not understand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and a little money coming in from the shop." It was my turn to be surprised. She said, "I should have gone to him and mastered him. I have mastered him now." (Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 10:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

It's one of Hethor's rants, where he goes on and on about his paracoita.

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"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i-irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not chosen instead to lie with me. . . . " genicon (Adult / Slang) My only source for this word is from K <http://www.definition-of.com/K>. S. Daly's * Sex. An Encyclopedia for the Bewildered * (1995): ' A sexual partner <http://www.definition-of.com/partner> imagined by a woman <http://www.definition-of.com/woman> who is no longer satisfied with her real partner <http://www.definition-of.com/partner>.' ------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Noun) also as a succubus-real imagined lover. an hallucinated sexual partner /Scopolagna/: “A woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme” (GW). Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say. As for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels). Jerry Friedman wrote:

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

.... That sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?

Brunians is probably on of the last people in the world I should speak for, but Hethor's lost paracoita is some kind of robot (/Shadow/, Ch. XXX). Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had irises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia. Agia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters, when he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say. As for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).

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This doesn't make Agia Hethor's doll. He is missing his doll and would no doubt accept a replacement, not caring whether it is flesh or synthetic, but probably preferring synthetic. But given another Wolfean principle, Conservation of Characters, it makes sense. Agia knows about Hethor's powers and does what she needs to do to control him. However, if she laid in his box before she mastered him ... then she was not under her own control on the Quasar. So we have a sex doll who was pliant, was apparently stolen, then found, but she now seeks and gains control of her owner. Who stole her? Who "woke" her? Agilus? This is a whole space opera subplot in itself. Ryan Dunn wrote:

"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not chosen instead to lie with me." (Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night) . And it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following passages.... . "Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him." (Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens) . "Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her to do it sooner." (Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus) . "...you were trying to kill me before Saltus." "With the avern. Yes, of course." "And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is." I waited for her to reply, but she said nothing. "On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not understand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and a little money coming in from the shop." It was my turn to be surprised. She said, "I should have gone to him and mastered him. I have mastered him now." (Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . ...ryan

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On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: What color are Agia's eyes? Are her hands ever mentioned?

... "Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her." (Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?

"She was of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them." . "With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her." (SotT, various) . I always pictured her as Asian. Consistent with the 80's sex doll subculture, I guess. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

What color are Agia's eyes? Are her hands ever mentioned?

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At 16:59 18/06/2010, Pedro wrote: Ryan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):

... "Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her." (Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?

Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo.

Ryan Dunn wrote: I guess it just sounds much less slavish how she knows Hethor, whereas he describes her as a sex slave in a lemonwood box who got loose. Could go either way, since his toy HAS gone missing. And she does say she mastered him in the text. Space opera sub-plot is RIGHT! ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Ah, that explains what I wondered about a minute ago: Hethor controlled her with monsters. Anyway, while I don't know why Agia would change her eye color, I don't see why she couldn't ... IF she is a paracoita. Possibly she changed her color to purple for Hethor, then changed it to evade him. And doesn't go back because it is after all an unnatural color.

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Ryan Dunn wrote: More evidence to ponder, and arguments to make for both sides of the argument of whather Agia was brought from the Quasar where she waited in a Lemonwood box without sleeping. Does she ever sleep in Severian's recount? . "I thought you had only promised yourself to him, if he would kill me." "I have promised him that and many other things, and so mastered him. He is ahead of you, Severian, waiting word from me." "With more of his beasts? Thank you for the warning. That was it, wasn't it? He had threatened you and Agilus with the pets he had brought from other spheres." She nodded. "He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't costumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain for centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his ships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns, where the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them." "I know," I said. "Jonas told me." "After I learned that you would kill Agilus, I went to him. He is iron- strong in some ways, weak in many others. If I had withheld my body I could have done nothing with him, but I did all the queer things he wished me to, and made him believe I love him. Now he will do anything I ask. He followed you for me after you killed Agilus; with his silver I hired the men you killed at the old mine, and the creatures he commands will kill you for me yet, if I don't do it here myself." (Agia and Severian on Hethor in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)

. But she is abnormally strong, as Severan observes here... . "Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her." (Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman? The paragraph opens explaining how "women" hold a blade. At first you assume Agia's assassin hold just makes her not a proverbial "woman". But then when he says her strength betrayed here, you're all like HUH? ...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 12:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Therefore they are the same. What changed?

brunians at brunians.org wrote: Agia lies all the time. Do you think she wants to admit she was a sex doll in front of her allies? I don't remember Agia's eye color being mentioned. .

You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had irises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia. Agia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters, when he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say. As for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).

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Ryan Dunn wrote: "She was of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them." . "With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her." (SotT, various) . I always pictured her as Asian. Consistent with the 80's sex doll subculture, I guess. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

What color are Agia's eyes? Are her hands ever mentioned?

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Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: Ryan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):

... "Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her." (Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?

Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo. _______________________________________________

Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: At 16:59 18/06/2010, Pedro wrote:

Ryan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):

... "Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her." (Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?

Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo.

That is my reading -- because her blow was so strong, her knife got caught in the wood and so Severian was able to wrench it from her grasp. (And I am an anglo :-) A few paras above this, she says that she and Agilus "were the same flesh", which would be a strange expression for a purported robot -- even a lying one. Mo # ~ # ~ # WolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ _______________________________________________

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: "Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her." (Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?

Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo.

Ryan Dunn wrote: So, going with this logic. Where does Agilus come into play. Did she alter her appearance to match Agia's after she escaped her lemonwood box? ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 12:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Therefore they are the same. What changed?

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Ryan Dunn wrote: Hmm... I can't help but think that he was explaining the difference between Agia and other women in this passage. And that the strength of her blow sort of sealed the deal for him, and betrayed that she is something more than woman. And not just assassin, I don't think. He already knew that fairly well, with more than three attempts on his life on her hands (oh those soft, delicate hands!). ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her." (Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!) . The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?

Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo.

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On Jun 18, 2010, at 1:51 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Is Agia an assassin robot straight out of Dune who played sex doll for Hethor because she wanted his power and money but feared his monsters, or is she a sex doll who turned skillfully murderous?

Ryan Dunn wrote: Or did Agilus have something to say about changing her from submissive sex kitten to dominatrix with some manly qualities? And perhaps (or instead) this was motivated by getting back at Hethor, mastering him, as it were? ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 1:51 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Is Agia an assassin robot straight out of Dune who played sex doll for Hethor because she wanted his power and money but feared his monsters, or is she a sex doll who turned skillfully murderous?

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On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of her physical makeup. Here's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? Does she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in. Another thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she can reverse direction and return to him. If Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his thirty or so. Stop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you.

Ryan Dunn wrote: Let me try this from a different angle. The amount of detail and description Hethor (and Severian (and Wolfe)) give regarding this missing poppet obviously feels like the reader should take note, and try to see if the mystery can be solved. Right? If not Agia, who else might this missing woman be? Or is this story a foreshadowing of the monsters Hethor will later let loose? ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of her physical makeup. Here's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? Does she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in. Another thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she can reverse direction and return to him. If Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his thirty or so. Stop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you.

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I agree. I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are completely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think all this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about Urth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless "facedancer" ship's robot in a woman's skin. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Let me try this from a different angle. The amount of detail and description Hethor (and Severian (and Wolfe)) give regarding this missing poppet obviously feels like the reader should take note, and try to see if the mystery can be solved. Right? If not Agia, who else might this missing woman be? Or is this story a foreshadowing of the monsters Hethor will later let loose? ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of her physical makeup. Here's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? Does she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in. Another thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she can reverse direction and return to him. If Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his thirty or so. Stop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you.

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Another thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she can reverse direction and return to him. If Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his thirty or so. Stop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you.

On Jun 18, 2010, at 3:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are completely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think all this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about Urth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless "facedancer" ship's robot in a woman's skin.

Ryan Dunn wrote: Okay, I think we're on the same page. If we agree, than there IS a woman on the loose in BotNS, who is a robot. Otherwise, I don't think Wolfe would have given us SO MUCH description of this missing paracoita. . HETHOR: "How soft her hands were, her little hands." SEVERIAN: "The slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in [Agilus] were compelling in her." . HETHOR: "... that flesh that always felt sun-warmed." SEVERIAN: "... as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold." . Hethor also vows to crush any who may have his poppet ("Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her!"), and then proceeds to (under urgings from Agia herself) sick his monsters on Severian. Just sayin'. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 3:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are completely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think all this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about Urth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless "facedancer" ship's robot in a woman's skin.

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On 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Yep. Hethor presents the reader with a clear mystery which Severian does not solve, but he does present us with lots of information about other, seemingly unrelated people and events. The trick is to match the clues to the mystery. Hethor's motives are pretty important to Shadow and Agia figures in those motives. She uses Hethor to attack Severian. She's not just a shopkeeper's brother. I recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person attacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Yep. Hethor presents the reader with a clear mystery which Severian does not solve, but he does present us with lots of information about other, seemingly unrelated people and events. The trick is to match the clues to the mystery. Hethor's motives are pretty important to Shadow and Agia figures in those motives. She uses Hethor to attack Severian. She's not just a shopkeeper's brother. I recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person attacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small.

David Stockhoff wrote: Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So it's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female assassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since Wolfe probably made up the "proverb," it was with a purpose, and there are no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin. (Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)

David Stockhoff wrote: Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

I recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person attacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small.

Yeah, I remember them ... But I wonder if Agia, whether flesh or not, is one of them.

Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: David Stockhoff wrote:

Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So it's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female assassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since Wolfe probably made up the "proverb," it was with a purpose, and there are no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin. (Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)

I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess. - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii? - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant. - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels? The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful. _______________________________________________

Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: David Stockhoff wrote:

Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

I recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person attacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small.

Yeah, I remember them ... But I wonder if Agia, whether flesh or not, is one of them.

Idas is supposed to be an undine or something and they don't seem to be very proficient in the arts of shapeshifting. _______________________________________________

On 06/18/2010 05:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

On Jun 18, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess. - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii? - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant. - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels? The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

Exactly. You make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot on that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech? Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

David Stockhoff wrote:

Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So it's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female assassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since Wolfe probably made up the "proverb," it was with a purpose, and there are no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin. (Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)

I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess. - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii? - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant. - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels? The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful. _______________________________________________

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

Ryan Dunn wrote: On Jun 18, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess. - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii? - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant. - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels? The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

You know, Agia does have a knack for bending people to her will, whether that be Severian, Hethor, the Vodalani, etc. The aureole suggests something holy, perhaps a symbolic moment, perhaps some archangelic aspect? If Ossipago is robot and not cacogen (I believe he is, isn't he), are there common clues connecting him and Agia? Or maybe just observations worthy of comparison (in the way there are between Hethor and Jonas, as star sailors). We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box????????? ...ryan _______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: They are biological and short lived. I think they are biological. .

Exactly. You make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot on that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech? Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

David Stockhoff wrote:

Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So it's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female assassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since Wolfe probably made up the "proverb," it was with a purpose, and there are no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin. (Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)

I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess. - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii? - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant. - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels? The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful. _______________________________________________

Adam Thornton wrote: On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List

Ossipago is not. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

They are biological and short lived. I think they are biological. .

Exactly. You make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot on that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech? Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

David Stockhoff wrote:

Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So it's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female assassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since Wolfe probably made up the "proverb," it was with a purpose, and there are no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin. (Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)

I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess. - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii? - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant. - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels? The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful. _______________________________________________

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010 Tested on: 6/18/2010 7:03:33 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

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On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010 Tested on: 6/18/2010 7:03:33 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

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Ryan Dunn wrote: Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

On Jun 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

Man that's deep. But I found myself nodding a lot. Another consideration... If she is the escapee, it makes perfect sense for her to want to change her identity, in case Hethor ever caught back up with her. I find the notion that these two are not birth twins not only intriguing but fully plausible. Thanks for this spirited debate and discussion, truly an awesome group of minds on here. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a retread for some. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here are a few. Male chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems, and 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8, p-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4, p-131). Chems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a belly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, "My hand caught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . " (ibid., chap. XXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and lifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for Agia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have pointed out. Jonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: "I carried him back (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . ." (CLAW, chap. XVI). Silk and Sev were both young, strong lads. Inire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL, chap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot from a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter. -Roy _______________________________________________

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here are a few. Male chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems, and 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8, p-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4, p-131). Chems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a belly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, "My hand caught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . " (ibid., chap. XXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and lifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for Agia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have pointed out. Jonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: "I carried him back (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . ." (CLAW, chap. XVI). Silk and Sev were both young, strong lads. Inire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL, chap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot from a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter. -Roy

Aww... you're spoiling all the fun! As for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says) than a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily, should it come to that. Have you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon from the lemon-wood box in the text? If yes, where to look? I'm following the clues, and they keep leading me to Agia. That's all I'm saying. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here are a few. Male chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems, and 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8, p-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4, p-131). Chems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a belly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, "My hand caught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . " (ibid., chap. XXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and lifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for Agia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have pointed out. Jonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: "I carried him back (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . ." (CLAW, chap. XVI). Silk and Sev were both young, strong lads. Inire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL, chap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot from a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter. -Roy

_______________________________________________

On Jun 19, 2010, at 12:44 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: She's a woman, whatever she is. Nothing you say here makes me doubt this theory.

Roy C. Lackey wrote: I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here are a few. Male chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems, and 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8, p-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4, p-131). Chems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a belly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, "My hand caught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . " (ibid., chap. XXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and lifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for Agia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have pointed out. Jonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: "I carried him back (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . ." (CLAW, chap. XVI). Silk and Sev were both young, strong lads. Inire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL, chap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot from a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter. -Roy _______________________________________________

David Stockhoff wrote: Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations. (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created by the gods. (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon. There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards established differences between robots and humans, because what matters in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme. Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain. Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses. I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the aureole around A&A. David Stockhoff wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I am on the same page as you. .

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations. (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created by the gods. (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon. There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards established differences between robots and humans, because what matters in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme. Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain. Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses. I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the aureole around A&A. David Stockhoff wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

David Stockhoff wrote: Father Inire writes to Severian: There is sedition among the Paralians, which must be rooted out. The Tarentines, your Antrustiones, and the city legions the three groups that bore the brunt of the fighting having suffered almost as badly as the enemy. There are cohorts among them that could not muster a hundred able soldiers. Lexicon Urthis suggests that these named groups are various subject peoples and tries to locate them. But this is plainly an error. Inire is simply giving the new Autarch a post-battle report. All these named groups are simply "imperial" legions and are mentioned nowhere else. According to Google: Paralians - Athenians off a ship named Paralus = Sailors and Marines. No kidding that there is sedition---Gunnie and Ida are among them. Tarentines = Italian mercenary cavalry = mercenary cavalry, possibly those Severian fought among. "Hipparch Severian, of the Black Tarentines." Antrustiones = foreign soldiers fighting for the the Frankish king = foreign soldiers fighting for the Autarch. _______________________________________________

Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point. I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I am on the same page as you. .

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations. (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created by the gods. (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon. There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards established differences between robots and humans, because what matters in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme. Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain. Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses. I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the aureole around A&A. David Stockhoff wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: When has an assassin robot been mentioned? According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name. Agia is an oriental robot. .

Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point. I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I am on the same page as you. .

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations. (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created by the gods. (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon. There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards established differences between robots and humans, because what matters in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme. Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain. Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses. I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the aureole around A&A. David Stockhoff wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

On 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

Is this better, dude? :)

To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.

That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple. It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names? Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common sex-doll specs? brunians at brunians.org wrote:

When has an assassin robot been mentioned? According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name. Agia is an oriental robot. .

Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point. I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I am on the same page as you. .

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations. (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created by the gods. (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon. There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards established differences between robots and humans, because what matters in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme. Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain. Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses. I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the aureole around A&A. David Stockhoff wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

On 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

Is this better, dude? :)

Bless you, man.

To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.

Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is "a dark aureole" about p.70 of SHADOW. Come to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia was awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her gown over her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would a sexbot be modest or hungry? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On Jun 19, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is "a dark aureole" about p.70 of SHADOW.

On 6/19/2010 8:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: No, of course it was the Antrustiones that Severian fought with, thus Inire's "your."

Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/19/2010 8:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

No, of course it was the Antrustiones that Severian fought with, thus Inire's "your."

Would that be the outfit with Daria, that was going to rob the gold from the mastiff-men's stagecoach?

Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

Is this better, dude? :)

Bless you, man.

To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.

Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is "a dark aureole" about p.70 of SHADOW. Come to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia was awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her gown over her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would a sexbot be modest or hungry?

brunians at brunians.org wrote: They are the same model, one M, one F. .

That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple. It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names? Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common sex-doll specs? brunians at brunians.org wrote:

When has an assassin robot been mentioned? According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name. Agia is an oriental robot. .

Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point. I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I am on the same page as you. .

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations. (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created by the gods. (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon. There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards established differences between robots and humans, because what matters in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme. Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain. Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses. I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the aureole around A&A. David Stockhoff wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

.... That sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

brunians at brunians.org wrote: Have you ever patronized a really classy whore, Wilson? .

On 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby

Theoanthropos cry.

Is this better, dude? :)

Bless you, man.

To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.

Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is "a dark aureole" about p.70 of SHADOW. Come to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia was awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her gown over her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would a sexbot be modest or hungry? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

Gerry Quinn wrote: From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

.... That sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same type. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power source to blow when she struck him with an azoth. And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] isotope contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it was good that he and Silk had been washed by their swim in Lake Limna. - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

On 6/19/2010 12:00 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: Aww... you're spoiling all the fun! As for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says) than a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily, should it come to that. Have you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon from the lemon-wood box in the text?

Well, except then you have the fact that Agilus doesn't have a metal head. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

They are the same model, one M, one F. .

That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple. It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names? Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common sex-doll specs? brunians at brunians.org wrote:

When has an assassin robot been mentioned? According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name. Agia is an oriental robot. .

Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point. I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I am on the same page as you. .

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations. (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created by the gods. (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon. There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards established differences between robots and humans, because what matters in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme. Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain. Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses. I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the aureole around A&A. David Stockhoff wrote:

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, but it makes some sense. (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin sister in Love. (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic. (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click. (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man. (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers. (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.) (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus. It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies. How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?" (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all. I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human. Ryan Dunn wrote:

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me. ...ryan On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her. And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings now. She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person. .

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian. Adam Thornton wrote:

On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's strings. Adam _______________________________________________

On 6/19/2010 12:00 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:

Aww... you're spoiling all the fun! As for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says) than a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily, should it come to that. Have you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon from the lemon-wood box in the text?

The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times, has an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged artifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in addition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers are also conservators of ancient technology.... -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

From: "Ryan Dunn" <ryan at liftingfaces.com> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. > The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.

On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?

Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common sex-doll specs?

On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times, has an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged artifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in addition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers are also conservators of ancient technology....

On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: Nobody has to change their face.

Ah, fusion. Yes, it was the shielding I was concerned about. Gerry Quinn wrote:

From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

.... That sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same type. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power source to blow when she struck him with an azoth. And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] isotope contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it was good that he and Silk had been washed by their swim in Lake Limna. - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

From: "Ryan Dunn" <ryan at liftingfaces.com> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. > The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. If Agia really was Hethor's paracoita rather than a human woman - I'm less than convinced of this, but there have been some interesting arguments made to that effect - might not Agilus have been another such? It might be that male and female paracoitae look similar, perhaps even having interchangeable parts. Male ones being slightly built would save weight and space after all, which would be convenient for someone who spends a lot of time in a box, or at least convenient for his or her owner. It would make them twins in a real sense. Perhaps they ran off together when their spacecraft landed. Nobody has to change their face. In fact the possibility is added that Agia is a different paracoita other than the one lost by Hethor, but Hethor recognised her as being one, since they all have similar looks. (If this is the case, I suspect the original owner of the rag shop met an unfortunate end.) - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

From: "Ryan Dunn" <ryan at liftingfaces.com> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. > The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth. If Agia really was Hethor's paracoita rather than a human woman - I'm less than convinced of this, but there have been some interesting arguments made to that effect - might not Agilus have been another such? It might be that male and female paracoitae look similar, perhaps even having interchangeable parts. Male ones being slightly built would save weight and space after all, which would be convenient for someone who spends a lot of time in a box, or at least convenient for his or her owner. It would make them twins in a real sense. Perhaps they ran off together when their spacecraft landed. Nobody has to change their face. In fact the possibility is added that Agia is a different paracoita other than the one lost by Hethor, but Hethor recognised her as being one, since they all have similar looks. (If this is the case, I suspect the original owner of the rag shop met an unfortunate end.) - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?

After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would be a much smoother distribution of "Asian" features. Severian has seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the time of his writing.

Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common sex-doll specs?

She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been trained to be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from her determination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life over many con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro who discusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike another person with full force? It's the same thing here. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

Fair enough, though who did they use when Hethor had her in his box? Or are you not actually implying that the humanoid puppet employed to play Katharine is actually the SAME sex toy as Hethor's, just that we see them in more than one place? ...ryan On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times, has an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged artifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in addition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers are also conservators of ancient technology....

_______________________________________________

On 6/19/2010 10:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: Good points. First, she's not proposed to be a "bot" in any usual sense, aside from having a metal head. And Agilus can lie, or maybe he doesn't even know what she is.

Second, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although modesty could just as well be "programmed." For all I know, she has a penis.

Third, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a torturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she is a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine.

Fourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting observation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two together are more than either of them individually.

And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would hardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her nuclear power cell.

Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?

After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would be a much smoother distribution of "Asian" features. Severian has seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the time of his writing.

Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common sex-doll specs?

She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been trained to be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from her determination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life over many con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro who discusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike another person with full force? It's the same thing here.

Exactly---if A&A are particularly Asian in appearance, they could be from the deep past, before such mixing. If they are human, that is. Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?

After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would be a much smoother distribution of "Asian" features. Severian has seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the time of his writing.

Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common sex-doll specs?

She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been trained to be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from her determination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life over many con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro who discusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike another person with full force? It's the same thing here.

_______________________________________________

David Stockhoff wrote: No one is saying Agia is a chem.

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?

After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would be a much smoother distribution of >>"Asian" features. Severian has seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the >>time of his writing.

Exactly---if A&A are particularly Asian in appearance, they could be from the deep past, before such mixing. If they are human, that is.

On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote: They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has "brown hair" (/ SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and "fair skin and freckles" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia).

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

.... That sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same type. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power >source to blow when she struck him with an azoth. And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] isotope >contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it was good that he and Silk had been washed by their >swim in Lake Limna.

Ryan Dunn wrote: ... and with those "strangely tilted eyes." A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self? :) ...ryan On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote:

They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has "brown hair" (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and "fair skin and freckles" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia).

_______________________________________________

On Jun 19, 2010, at 8:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Elsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as "slanting." What else are we to think? Ryan Dunn wrote:

... and with those "strangely tilted eyes." A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self? :) ...ryan

Ryan Dunn wrote: ... and with those "strangely tilted eyes." A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self? :) ...ryan On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote:

They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has "brown hair" (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and "fair skin and freckles" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia).

_______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 100619-1, 06/19/2010 Tested on: 6/19/2010 6:53:23 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

On 6/19/2010 6:16 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: I see "chemical" comes from a Greek word for "transmutation". Referring isotopes in a tiny reactor?

From: "Ryan Dunn" <ryan at liftingfaces.com> On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

Nobody has to change their face.

Except for the fact that Hethor reportedly visited Agia and Agilus at the rag shop BEFORE Hethor meets Severian, at which point he has his rant about his missing genicon.

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll.

On 6/20/2010 3:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>

And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll.

I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is interesting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light falling on her skin.

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>

And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll.

I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is interesting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light falling on her skin. - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

Ryan Dunn wrote: Correct, David. Here were the two passages that definitely indicated Agia was of some type of Asian descent (to me, anyhow)... . "With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins." (TSotT, Chap. 17, "The Challenge") "Beside me walked a suntanned girl with long and slanting eyes." (TCotA, Chap. 30, "The Corridors of Time") . ...ryan On Jun 19, 2010, at 8:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Elsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as "slanting." What else are we to think? Ryan Dunn wrote:

... and with those "strangely tilted eyes." A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self? :) ...ryan

_______________________________________________

Jerry Friedman wrote: I think we're to think that she's of Far Eastern and European ancestry, or whatever the equivalents are in that previous universe. People were talking as if she were Asian. I pointed out that she has other ancestry as well. I could have been clearer. Jerry Friedman ----- Original Message ---- From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> Elsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as "slanting." What else are we to think? Ryan Dunn wrote:

... and with those "strangely tilted eyes." A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self? :) ...ryan On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote:

They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has "brown hair" (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and "fair skin and freckles" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia).

_______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 100619-1, 06/19/2010 Tested on: 6/19/2010 6:53:23 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

_______________________________________________

Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/20/2010 3:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>

And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll.

I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is interesting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light falling on her skin.

Perhaps Agilus and Agia are the remnants of a race or a bloodline of sexdoll-people, engender for that purpose and of similar origin as the mastiff-men and the cat women. They look alike because they are not just twins but made to be fertile only among their cohort and giving birth to clones of themselves meant to eventually replace them. This would explain why their incest is "acceptable" and thus not cursed with defects from hidden recessives (because they don't come with recessives) but the sin of their creation is visited upon them. This also explains why Hethor falls for Agia; she greatly resembles his doll because their creators had similar opinions on what made a most desirable woman, long term. (Dr Talos has more radical preferences for Jolenta, no doubt contributing to her unsustainability.)

On 6/20/2010 11:50 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: I'd prefer to rest a theory on at least 3 data points. If she's not a "hard robot": ---Her strength has another source ---She could still be the poppet ---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or just human

After giving away the hard-robot part, is it needed that A&A be anything other than human at all? It's not strictly necessary that Agia be the poppet; it may be enough that Hethor recognizes something in Agia that he likes---it could be as simple as that she is passive in bed and dominating/controlling otherwise, although I doubt her ability to even fake being passive if she's human. Perhaps Hethor needs both dominance and submission.

Jeff Wilson wrote: On 6/20/2010 11:50 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

I'd prefer to rest a theory on at least 3 data points. If she's not a "hard robot": ---Her strength has another source ---She could still be the poppet ---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or just human

I think the poppet's stretches in the box are not suited to anything like a vertebrate: the bit about smiling when it closes so she can be smiling when it opens indicates her muscles don't relax during periods of inactivity. The whole sharp sound episode demonstrates Agila's muscles positively relax when her consciousness is interfered with. As for her strength, she's ruthless and cold, like Lady MacBeth sought to be. She may also have a bit more innate strength than usual for her size, perhaps because rather than just sex toys, A&A's line was intended to be conjugal domestics; this way a slight manservant can be just as good at opening jars and moving furniture as a full-size. And it may not be muscle, it could be a more ready adrenaline rush.

After giving away the hard-robot part, is it needed that A&A be anything other than human at all? It's not strictly necessary that Agia be the poppet; it may be enough that Hethor recognizes something in Agia that he likes---it could be as simple as that she is passive in bed and dominating/controlling otherwise, although I doubt her ability to even fake being passive if she's human. Perhaps Hethor needs both dominance and submission.

Agia owns up to doing all the kinky things that Hethor likes, so she's at least capable of bottoming if not actual submission. I think her determination is such that she could and would submit to anything short of a SAW movie that would further her revenge on Severian and the world in general, at least in the short term.

From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org> Who has purple eyes in the story?

Does any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?

Here's a video of a pitcher getting beaned. Right after the crack of the bat, there's a tok of the ball-skull collision. IMO the bat's crack is sharper than the skull's tok , which is still sharper than the thump of meaty limbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all familiar with. The ball hits faster than Agia's head would have hit the wall, but the stone wall would be much more rigid than a baseball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auss-QFCor4&feature=PlayList&pL9AAD000C45EE30& playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index http://preview.tinyurl.com/2dy5gd2

Second, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although modesty could just as well be "programmed." For all I know, she has a penis.

Third, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a torturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she is a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine.

Fourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting observation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two together are more than either of them individually.

And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would hardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her nuclear power cell.

From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com> I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story

and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't > guess.

- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?

- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant.

- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything -

can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?

The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense).

Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>

Who has purple eyes in the story?

I won't answer that because I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient, inviolable rules that I don't know. But if I were to answer it, I'd say Thecla and presumably her khaibit.

Does any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?

Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit. I'd also say that Thecla has "impossibly narrow" hands, which I picture as long and thin, like her body. You may or may not picture them that way, and however you picture them may or may not be what you mean by "small or delicate". From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> ...

Here's a video of a pitcher getting beaned. Right after the crack of the bat, there's a tok of the ball-skull collision. IMO the bat's crack is sharper than the skull's tok , which is still sharper than the thump of meaty limbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all familiar with. The ball hits faster than Agia's head would have hit the wall, but the stone wall would be much more rigid than a baseball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auss-QFCor4&feature=PlayList&pL9AAD000C45EE30& playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index http://preview.tinyurl.com/2dy5gd2

That's worse than reading about Allowin's Necklace. However, "sharp" is not the word I'd use to distinguish those two sounds. Maybe just me. I live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle skull, put a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface.

Second, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although modesty could just as well be "programmed." For all I know, she has a penis.

This is modesty after she has been seen completely naked. And why would anyone program a sexbot to cast runic curses?

Third, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a torturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she is a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine.

I do not see that Agia is an assassin, her murders do not appear to serve anyone's purposes outside hers and her brothers.

Fourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting observation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two together are more than either of them individually.

Rereading about their "aureate faces" and "a narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before", it could be the dust and fibers from the straw on the floor, the way mist makes an aureole around the moon's sunlit face. http://www.lpod.org/?pp2 or since "aureate" can also eman decorated with gold, there might be no actual fringe of light, but instead this would be another reference to their skin tone, which Sev has already likened to gold where the sun glints from Agia's skin through a rent in her ragged gown. I'm not saying this doesn't count as a subtextual halo, of course.

And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would hardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her nuclear power cell.

That's not the same as a sexbot - "sleeping" immobile in a box is a strong advertisement that you are not really a person. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense).

From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>

Who has purple eyes in the story?

I won't answer that because I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient, inviolable rules that I don't know. But if I were to answer it, I'd say

Does any girl in

Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit. I'd also say that Thecla has

body. You may or may not picture them that way, and however you picture them may or may not be what you mean by "small or delicate". From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>

What color are Dorcas' eyes?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010, David Stockhoff wrote: ---Her strength has another source ---She could still be the poppet ---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or just human

David Duffy wrote: On Sun, 20 Jun 2010, David Stockhoff wrote:

---Her strength has another source ---She could still be the poppet ---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or just human

Well, it's a common trope that opposite-sex dizygotic twins can be so similar that they can cross-dress and confuse others, but in reality they are will have an average brother-sister resemblance. But in Urth, we know about the khaibits, so it would be possible to produce genetically identical twins aside from the sex chromosomes. That would be closer to the alchemical twinning, I guess. I always had the impression they were unusually similar, but couldn't point to any particular descriptive passages. I guess the other thing is after losing Agilus, she becomes Severian's evil twin ;) Cheers, David Duffy. _______________________________________________

From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>

Who has purple eyes in the story?

I won't answer that because I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient, inviolable rules that I don't know. But if I were to answer it, I'd say

Thecla and presumably her khaibit.

Does any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?

Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit. I'd also say that Thecla has

"impossibly narrow" hands, which I picture as long and thin, like her body. You may or may not picture them that way, and however you picture them may or may not be what you mean by "small or delicate".

From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>

What color are Dorcas' eyes?

"The deep blue of the world-river Uroboros in my dreams" (/SotT/, Ch. XXVI). "Bits of the azure firmament of some hidden world waiting for Man" (Ch. XXXV). Those were the first two references I found. Are there others that suggest anything different? And what is the purpose of these questions? I'm changing my answer to Antonio's question. Maybe Agia and Agilus do make their living from avern duels with unwary travelers. There must be some reason we're told twice in /SotT/, Ch. XXV, that Agia's been at the Inn of Lost Loves before. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On 6/20/2010 3:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques<entonio at gmail.com>

I don't think law or morality has anything to do with her feelings, and I think her anger has something to do with Severian's failure to die (a point Agilus brought up). It may also have to do with his ability to resist her efforts to change his mind. And after Agilus dies, what does she have but revenge?

can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?

Their instant scheme is very striking. Maybe we should imagine that, with lots of time on their hands since their shop isn't busy, they've talked about what to do if someone brings something valuable in.

Incidentally, if she is a sex robot or a genetically engineered doxy > or some such, it's remarkable that she'd be eking out a living from the costume shop. I suppose if she's an assassin, the shop could be her cover.

On Jun 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: Dorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is mentioned. Her eyes are close to purple...

_______________________________________________

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: On Jun 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Dorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is mentioned. Her eyes are close to purple...

Oh man, I can't even TRY to puzzle that one out. She IS a poppet candidate, though, I guess (?). We would have to introduce time traveling or something into the equation, since there are several other characters in BotNS who can vouch for her (Boatman, Ouen, etc.). But here's one interesting observation. Check out this scene switch from the end of Hethor's rant, to the very next scene scene... . "'Where is she, the beloved whom I lost?' # Dorcas had found a daisy for her hair..." . It doesn't make a lick of sense, as Hethor traveled with Dorcas and Severian without incident (though later we discover Hethor didn't want to be around Jonas). But it's something worth noting. ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:43 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote: If only Gene Wolfe had written another text, possibly a short story, exploring the idea of puppets in boxes. Then maybe someone wiser than I could draw wisdom from that text and apply it to the problem of the paracoita, which is beyond me. I will make a few observations that, while not wise, may spur others to wisdom. 1) It seems that delicate and/or doll-like characteristics are attributed to several women in the story, but that Hethor meant one particular paracoita--we may just be dealing with a motif, rather than a puzzle with a definite character as the solution, and there may be red herrings...like a sickening crack of bone on stone being described as as sharp as a metallic clang. Or not. 2) Severian dreams of marionettes that seemingly represent him and Baldanders. 3) In Urth, Severian-as-White-Fountain describes Severian-as-Man as a "marionette of flesh". 4) An inveterate punster who was also a devout Catholic might be taken by the term "marionette." It might conceivably please him to make several female characters in a single work "marionettes" in one sense or another. 5) Why lemonwood? After all, the classic wood for a doll that comes to life is pine. Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.

_______________________________________________

On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote: Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:

Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.

Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. . poppet n. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300 n. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is physically smaller than the lover paracoita n. - a female sexual partner genicon n. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by his/her actual partner scopolagna n. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme . ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:14 AM, John Watkins wrote: She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:14 AM, John Watkins wrote:

She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.

Sorry, but were you saying Howdy-Doody was made out of lemonwood? Or that his box was? Maybe that was where I got mixed up? If you're simply noting that Howdy Doody was borne of lemonwood as an aside, then ignore me. ...ryan _______________________________________________

Ryan Dunn wrote: On Jun 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Dorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is mentioned. Her eyes are close to purple...

Oh man, I can't even TRY to puzzle that one out. She IS a poppet candidate, though, I guess (?). We would have to introduce time traveling or something into the equation, since there are several other characters in BotNS who can vouch for her (Boatman, Ouen, etc.). But here's one interesting observation. Check out this scene switch from the end of Hethor's rant, to the very next scene scene... . "'Where is she, the beloved whom I lost?' # Dorcas had found a daisy for her hair..." . It doesn't make a lick of sense, as Hethor traveled with Dorcas and Severian without incident (though later we discover Hethor didn't want to be around Jonas). But it's something worth noting. ...ryan _______________________________________________

John Watkins wrote: If only Gene Wolfe had written another text, possibly a short story, exploring the idea of puppets in boxes. Then maybe someone wiser than I could draw wisdom from that text and apply it to the problem of the paracoita, which is beyond me. I will make a few observations that, while not wise, may spur others to wisdom. 1) It seems that delicate and/or doll-like characteristics are attributed to several women in the story, but that Hethor meant one particular paracoita--we may just be dealing with a motif, rather than a puzzle with a definite character as the solution, and there may be red herrings...like a sickening crack of bone on stone being described as as sharp as a metallic clang. Or not. 2) Severian dreams of marionettes that seemingly represent him and Baldanders. 3) In Urth, Severian-as-White-Fountain describes Severian-as-Man as a "marionette of flesh". 4) An inveterate punster who was also a devout Catholic might be taken by the term "marionette." It might conceivably please him to make several female characters in a single work "marionettes" in one sense or another. 5) Why lemonwood? After all, the classic wood for a doll that comes to life is pine. Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood. _______________________________________________

Ryan Dunn wrote: On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:

Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.

Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. . poppet n. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300 n. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is physically smaller than the lover paracoita n. - a female sexual partner genicon n. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by his/her actual partner scopolagna n. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme . ...ryan _______________________________________________

John Watkins wrote: She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys. On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com>> wrote: On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote: > Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood. Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. . poppet n. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300 n. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is physically smaller than the lover paracoita n. - a female sexual partner genicon n. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by his/her actual partner scopolagna n. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme . ...ryan _______________________________________________

On 6/21/2010 12:14 AM, John Watkins wrote: She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.

James Wynn wrote: On 6/21/2010 12:14 AM, John Watkins wrote:

She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.

See "Sabra" in 'The Soldier of Sidon'. ᚹ _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net

On 6/21/2010 2:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Does anyone know what collection this story is in?

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: Does anyone know what collection this story is in?

Eugene Zaretskiy wrote: On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

Does anyone know what collection this story is in?

I read it in the recent "The Best of Gene Wolfe" collection. http://www.amazon.com/Best-Gene-Wolfe-Definitive-Retrospective/dp/076532136X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277147539&sr=8-5 I particularly like this collection because every story has commentary by Gene Wolfe and quite a few of them are hilarious, and the rest simply insightful.