Severian and Apu-Punchau

CRCulver writes:

I think Severian must be in error here, because in "our" timeline, near the end of "Urth of the New Sun," he becomes Apu-Punchau. As this hasn't happened to him yet when he writes Citadel, he doesn't realize that he too will end up as Apu-Punchau. Or are you suggesting that the previous incarnation of Severian was Apu-Punchau, version 1, and "our" Severian is Apu-Punchau, version 2? This suggestion, it seems to me, rests on the idea that the first Apu-Punchau died (for real), because Severian met his ghost in the Stone Town. Except, it wasn't a ghost; the Cumaean reached back through time to a period when Apu-Punchau was alive (or vice versa), just as Severian himself reaches through time (or alternate timelines) to work his resurrections and healing miracles. I think Severian was meeting his own future self, currently living in the past. I agree wholeheartedly that following the temporal antics (much less the deaths and resurrections) in the five books is difficult if not impossible. I'd love to see the full accounting and a timeline with branch points... -vizcacha (david_lebling at avid.com)

In Response to Vizcacha: Let's get some terms out of the way here before I begin: Severian1 - the Severian of the first iteration of Briah, who gained the Phoenix Throne but did not bring the New Sun to Earth. Severian2 - the Severian who we know, who gained the Phoenix Throne, with the help of the Claw, and did in fact succeed in bringing the New Sun back. Tzadkiel, or whoever, saw the 'mistakes' of Severian1, and altered the timeline so there would be a Severian 2 who would succeed in saving Urth, although transforming it into Ushas. Apu-Punchau1 - the Apu-Punchau who Severian2 meets in the Stone Town. Apu-Punchau1 was Severian1, but did not succeed in bringing the New Sun back, and for some reason (Mr. Driussi says it is entropy) is cast back in time. Apu-Punchau2 - the man who Severian2 eventually becomes after the Urth-to-Ushas thing. He is, in my opinion, the person buried in the Citadel necropolis.

The name "Apu-Punchau" is so often associated with Severian1/Apu-Punchau1 that confusion erupts. However, although Severian2 becomes Apu-Punchau2, Apu-Punchau2 and Apu-Punchau1 are not entirely in the same temporal circumstances. They are two different people, i.e. Apu-Punchau1 is from the first iteration and coming from the soon-Ragnarok Urth (he did fail), but Apu-Punchau2 is from the second iteration, and coming from Ushas, because he did "succeed." Put simply, Severian becomes Apu-Punchau2, a man who appears much the same as the Apu-Punchau of the Stone Town (Apu-Punchau1) but is not the same. See below for my comments on the Stone Town.

I disaggree. In the Stone Town, I believe Severian2 was meeting himself of a former iteration of Briah, Apu-Punchau1. Severian2 was NOT meeting the Apu-Punchau which he would become, Apu-Punchau2.

I don't really know if Severian2 does this, or the Claw does this. I am not quite sure how the Claw fits into the iterations of Briah, and it will be one of the most carefully scrutinized elements when I begin my rereading. However, I do know that, if Severian2 is correct, then Severian1 did not have the Claw.

Excuse me whilst I get some more aspirin <g> Christopher R. Culver <crculver at aol.com> http://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html ------------------------------------------------ "Ignorance, that light of fools steers a wayward path" -Brendan Perry