This week in Google alerts; story with Gaiman:

Andrew Mason19 Feb 2011, 22:21as archived

Gerry Quinn wrote: . As you say, Latin and English would be nearly indistinguishable in

6 quoted lines

Severian's day. What I think is that the language represented as Latin in BotNS is to the contemporary language of Severian's day as Latin is to the English of today. ?And I don't think the language Thea speaks of (which is actually the English we speak) ?holds that position. ?It seems more distant. I other words I think: <Terminus Est> : <Sev's language> :: Latin : English <language Thea mentions> : <Sev's language> :: <really ancient language> : English

I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is being used in Long Sun (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It might be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate reconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca explains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First Empire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages were among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem not to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the end of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining knowledge from an earlier time.

Gerry Quinn20 Feb 2011, 01:31as archived

↳ in reply to Andrew Mason

9 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

From: "Andrew Mason" <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> Gerry Quinn wrote:

As you say, Latin and English would be nearly indistinguishable in Severian's day. What I think is that the language represented as Latin in BotNS is to the contemporary language of Severian's day as Latin is to the English of today. And I don't think the language Thea speaks of (which is actually the English we speak) holds that position. It seems more distant. I other words I think: <Terminus Est> : <Sev's language> :: Latin : English <language Thea mentions> : <Sev's language> :: <really ancient language> : English

I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is being used in Long Sun (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It might be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate reconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca explains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First Empire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages were among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem not to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the end of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining knowledge from an earlier time.

Hmm, I have never been inclined to take Cyriaca's story as other than a myth with perhaps a grain of truth to it. (Though Cordwainer Smith's future history contains a similar event.) Your idea about the Whorl cultures is interesting. They do seem rather more unique and 'ethnic' than one would expect from colonists coming from a world which was surely at least as much a global village as our own. On the other hand, the 'Indian' type culture in Gaon seems to speak the same language as that spoken in Viron (or does it?). The Trivigauntis have their own 'high language' but their normal language seems to be the same as in Viron. The Sleepers do not seem to have any specially imposed cultural norms. It is hard to put any definitive pattern to it. - Gerry Quinn

David Stockhoff20 Feb 2011, 01:42as archived

↳ in reply to Andrew Mason

9 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

On 2/19/2011 5:21 PM, Andrew Mason wrote: Gerry Quinn wrote: . As you say, Latin and English would be nearly indistinguishable in Severian's day. What I think is that the language represented as Latin in BotNS is to the contemporary language of Severian's day as Latin is to the English of today. And I don't think the language Thea speaks of (which is actually the English we speak) holds that position. It seems more distant.

I other words I think: <Terminus Est> :<Sev's language> :: Latin : English <language Thea mentions> :<Sev's language> ::<really ancient language> : English

I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is being used in Long Sun (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It might be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate reconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca explains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First Empire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages were among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem not to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the end of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining knowledge from an earlier time.

I agree with this.

David Stockhoff20 Feb 2011, 01:54as archived

↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn

8 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

On 2/19/2011 8:31 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote: From: "Andrew Mason" <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> Gerry Quinn wrote:

I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is being used in Long Sun (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It might be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate reconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca explains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First Empire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages were among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem not to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the end of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining knowledge from an earlier time.

Hmm, I have never been inclined to take Cyriaca's story as other than a myth with perhaps a grain of truth to it. (Though Cordwainer Smith's future history contains a similar event.) Your idea about the Whorl cultures is interesting. They do seem rather more unique and 'ethnic' than one would expect from colonists coming from a world which was surely at least as much a global village as our own. On the other hand, the 'Indian' type culture in Gaon seems to speak the same language as that spoken in Viron (or does it?). The Trivigauntis have their own 'high language' but their normal language seems to be the same as in Viron. The Sleepers do not seem to have any specially imposed cultural norms. It is hard to put any definitive pattern to it.

It does not need to have been a successful recreation. Just an attempt---with a Babel-like resonance.