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ah, so that's why Jesus wept! ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 00:18:47 -0600 From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> Subject: Re: (urth) The signif…
31 Dec 2008, 14:48
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Jeff Obviously, this is not a matter that can be truly resolved. You're right that the destiny-control machinery must be used for something, and we are told in general terms what…
31 Dec 2008, 14:45
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Sorry I wasn't clear. You generally have the option of replying in plain text, rich text, or HTML. HTML emails result in the text that appeared below your post. Here, it's below th…
31 Dec 2008, 03:19
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Witz wrote (among other things): "As the stone swung back, I saw the starry sky and the single bright star (blue now with its velocity) that was myself." I had forgotten that…
31 Dec 2008, 03:14
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Pedro, by no means should you STFU. But please respond in plain text if you can. I've been forgetting, myself, but reading your posts reminded me! The iterative-Urth theory can't …
30 Dec 2008, 17:27
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Exactly. Severian doesn't know what a photograph is. But a painting at least can be recreated and copied so the image (the icon, if you will) lasts chiliads.…
30 Dec 2008, 17:04
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I'm skeptical that that means anything much, since if it is a painting it can be assumed to be a copy of a copy of a copy. Its exact composition is irrelevant. It doesn't need to…
30 Dec 2008, 16:16
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Good to know! Wolfe always weaves his fiction from existing threads, whether literary or real. In a sense, he's one of the most "unoriginal" and "uncreative" writers I can think o…
30 Dec 2008, 15:41
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I have always linked these 2 scenes in my mind, but never knew what to make of it .... Homage, perhaps.…
30 Dec 2008, 15:28
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That does point up something germane, however. The Claw's colors are blue and white on the outside (sky, sun) and red and black (green??) on the inside (thorn, blood). None of thes…
30 Dec 2008, 02:46
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Of course, Urth could just as well be in our past as future. It could just as well be in both as in either. And if Christ is ever to "return" and fulfill god's promise after the F…
29 Dec 2008, 23:50
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Well, that's one theory that has been raised---that Urth is in a "later" universe than Earth. The idea of Urth being a subsequent "run" is intriguing. But it's both unnecessary and…
29 Dec 2008, 23:40
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There is that point in the story where Severian heals (I forget whom he heals, perhaps Declan) and he tells us very precisely what it is like to cram one's consciousness into a hum…
29 Dec 2008, 23:34
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That's an interesting comment. Severian's lame leg points to this as well, and of course there is the Green Man. Also, Severian has undergone his share of repeated sacrifices or at…
29 Dec 2008, 23:17
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Witz: So as far as plot is concerned, Apu Punchau is likely to be way in OUR past. It makes sense he would be the Inca sun god because of proximity, although really he should be A…
24 Dec 2008, 14:01
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Thematically, each is meaningless without the other. Yes, there's a lot of material to mine there. You could illustrate these three series for the rest of your life---make a care…
23 Dec 2008, 23:27
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I doubt the question of free will vs intervention (by whoever) is entirely binary, however. I'd guess a more important point is that neither can be dismissed.…
23 Dec 2008, 02:30
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The significance of Apu Punchau is a mystery to me. I find it hard to believe that he's related to the Commonwealth state religion. It's also not clear exactly how the Conciliato…
20 Dec 2008, 19:57
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Good observation. Severian is the Black Sun and is probably depicted with a black halo, and it may be his own iconography he sees in the green book ("ascetic pantocrators and hypos…
20 Dec 2008, 17:35
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May I say that this is the strangest post I have yet seen on this listserv. And the AEG discussions are usually pretty damn weird, if you haven't read the thing. I'm impressed and…
19 Dec 2008, 18:13
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Pray, tell!…
19 Dec 2008, 02:00
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Yeah, other than what I quoted, it does sound fairly silly. I have a low tolerance for silly unless it's funny (see Snow Crash: very silly, not funny). Wolfe always disguises his s…
18 Dec 2008, 23:08
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that's HIRO Protagonist, to you! (At least the Japanese name is plausible.) Snow Crash is much like those movies, especially action comedies it seems, that are truly great for the…
18 Dec 2008, 17:05
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Speaking of the Jerusalem Quartet---I'm not very familiar with it though I have read reviews. A quick google came up with the following description: Sinai Tapestry, originally pu…
18 Dec 2008, 14:34
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I will second that, on both counts. And add The Deep and Beasts, as well.…
17 Dec 2008, 23:34
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I think that analysis is correct. Foreknowledge is one thing, but throw in interventionism and you have something to chew on, both in theology and in (science) fiction. Time travel…
15 Dec 2008, 17:46
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Agree to all that. I think one way to summarize it is to say that the cosmological scheme of TbotNS is a literary device, like time travel itself. It's an idea, not a working mod…
15 Dec 2008, 03:10
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James--- I see what you mean by the guitar strings analogy now. Yes, perhaps the implications of the gods' failures need not be absolute, nor strictly limited to the universe wher…
15 Dec 2008, 00:07
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I think it's somewhat more important than that---if only to rule out disturbing implications such as a literally repetitive cycle of universes where everything plays out the same o…
14 Dec 2008, 14:56
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James--- Apheta makes it fairly clear that causation has occurred. The Hieros happened, and then the Hierogrammates happened. The Hieros' old universe is gone, and Briah has not. …
13 Dec 2008, 22:56
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Some kind of cyclically expanding/contracting universe theory has been around for at least several decades, if not more. But this is cool to read about. It addresses something th…
13 Dec 2008, 03:05
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Sure, in the plain, sci-fi interpretation of TBotNS. But he's also something else, because everything in TBotNS is also Something Else.…
12 Dec 2008, 23:34
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Then Severian CAN die. But after he becomes a god, can he die? Is there a point where he is no longer a god---Ushas---and can die?…
12 Dec 2008, 23:30
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But angels don't have sons. Basically, I'm suggesting any being in charge of Urth or its galaxy is essentially a type of god. Though he also functions as angel.…
12 Dec 2008, 21:50
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Witz wrote: Problems: ---He can't yet know The quote above, I believe, is accurate speculation by Severian. Good Intuition. He's not "stunned" in tUotNS, he just marvels at i…
12 Dec 2008, 21:48
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I don't follow. he's scarred about the time he becomes Autarch. so when he reigns in the House Absolute, he's scarred. when he returns later, he's fixed, but he has a smaller ne…
12 Dec 2008, 21:36
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Jordon & Witz--- It doesn't work perfectly for exactly those reasons. However, the pattern is so clear I don't think it can be denied. Also, for me there is little difference bet…
12 Dec 2008, 15:56
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The text is here: Again I endured my imprisonment in the jungle ziggurat by Vodalus, the year I had spent among the Ascians, my flight from the white wolves in the Secret House; a…
12 Dec 2008, 15:32
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And that passage occurs after Severian returns from Yesod, so that makes even better sense than if he is MORE scarred. Who is the prophetess with the Autarch Valeria when Severian…
12 Dec 2008, 15:23
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Witz wrote: Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Said you gave him a chrisos like none he'…
12 Dec 2008, 15:01
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On the first point, Severian writes this in TCotA before he experiences and writes TUotNS: Then those who walk the corridors walked back to the time when he was young, and my own…
12 Dec 2008, 14:58
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Which is perfect, if you accept the parody theory. After all, the Demiurge is a parody of God. BTW, I meant "atrocious" in my quote below. I think this term can apply to actual at…
12 Dec 2008, 00:02
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Sounds likely---thanks!…
11 Dec 2008, 23:55
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That makes sense! I thought Juturna was referring to the next Severian's drowning in Gyoll, which would mean there are not 2 (which I have argued against before) but an infinite se…
11 Dec 2008, 20:37
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Lexicon Urthis suggests that Severian spent a year among the Ascians. Does anyone know when this is thought to have occurred?…
11 Dec 2008, 19:17
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Yes, I considered that, Erebus being the son of Chaos, and Scylla being the daughter of Hecate or Crataeis or else of Typhon and Echidna (Chaos, Mother of all monsters), as in TBot…
11 Dec 2008, 19:13
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Exactly, and that's just what Lovecraft did with his monsters. Abaia and Erebus are EXTREMELY Lovecraftian. All but the tentacles---Cthulhu also sent out dreams from beneath the se…
11 Dec 2008, 19:04
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I had forgotten that Tzadkiel's son fought and died in the judicial combat that confirmed Severian's success as Epitome. If Tzadkiel is the Demiurge, and the Demiurge is God, the…
11 Dec 2008, 19:02
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Witz--- Two thoughts: First, I am not sure Severian's thought needs to refer to a black hole. It sounds to me like what happens at the heart of a normal star. There is immense pr…
11 Dec 2008, 18:55
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I also don't recall any evidence that the black hole had anything to do with any punishment. The suns inhabited by humans are cut off from one another, and the Commonwealth is froz…
11 Dec 2008, 18:19
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