Sleeping Baldanders

I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV ("Baldanders"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts on what's really going on there? Baldanders says four things: (1) Never."? (2) "Baldanders."? (3) "You--strike off."? (4) "Tomorrow, then." The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?

Matt Teel wrote: Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2) "Baldanders." (3) "You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then."

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote: Matt Teel wrote:

Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2) "Baldanders." (3) "You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then."

My take is that Baldanders is only pretending to be talking in his sleep. He's playing his role as a dim-witted giant here, instead of the articulate genius he actually is. _______________________________________________

On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV ("Baldanders"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts on what's really going on there? Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2) "Baldanders." (3) "You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then." The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?

He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew.

On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV ("Baldanders"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts on what's really going on there? Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2)

"You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then." The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?

He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew.

On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV ("Baldanders"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts on what's really going on there? Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2)

"You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then." The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?

He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote: Not sure about the rest, but I assume that "You -- strike off" has to do with Severian "striking off" peoples' heads. ------------------------------ From: Matt Teel <adeodatus43 at yahoo.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 1:12:06 PM Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders Hm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with Bruce's observation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with his personality, and Dave's observation that he's only pretending to be asleep and is actually awake, we may get at the root of this enigmatic little scene. Matt --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV ("Baldanders"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts on what's really going on there? Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2)

"Baldanders." (3)

"You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then." The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?

He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew.

Knew that he was the New Sun to be? something like (you, the New Sun) "Never" (the New Sun will be ) "Baldanders" "You--strike off." (Get the hell out of here) "Tomorrow, then." (we will dispute this another day) something like that? ~witz _______________________________________________

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Bruce Hayles <brucehayles at gmail.com> wrote: Craig, that was exactly my understanding of it too. I don't have the book with me, but I remember Severian saying something that indicates that that is also his interpretation. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

Not sure about the rest, but I assume that "You -- strike off" has to do with Severian "striking off" peoples' heads. ------------------------------ From: Matt Teel <adeodatus43 at yahoo.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 1:12:06 PM Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders Hm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with Bruce's observation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with his personality, and Dave's observation that he's only pretending to be asleep and is actually awake, we may get at the root of this enigmatic little scene. Matt --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV ("Baldanders"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts

on what's really going on there?

Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2)

"Baldanders." (3)

"You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then."

The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward

Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?

He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew.

Knew that he was the New Sun to be? something like (you, the New Sun) "Never" (the New Sun will be ) "Baldanders" "You--strike off." (Get the hell out of here) "Tomorrow, then." (we will dispute this another day) something like that? ~witz _______________________________________________

On Dec 29, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Paul B wrote: I haven't kept track or anything, but I'd be willing to entertain the notion that Severian is wrong more than half of the time in his interpretations of events. The issue of Baldanders' inconsistent behavior could also be explained (as I explained it to myself) by "incredible hulk" syndrome. When he gets upset (as when he charged the audience or fought Severian) he flies into a rage, but is analytical otherwise. Paul On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Bruce Hayles <brucehayles at gmail.com> wrote: Craig, that was exactly my understanding of it too. I don't have the book with me, but I remember Severian saying something that indicates that that is also his interpretation. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote: Not sure about the rest, but I assume that "You -- strike off" has to do with Severian "striking off" peoples' heads. From: Matt Teel <adeodatus43 at yahoo.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 1:12:06 PM Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders Hm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with Bruce's observation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with his personality, and Dave's observation that he's only pretending to be asleep and is actually awake, we may get at the root of this enigmatic little scene. Matt --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV ("Baldanders"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts

on what's really going on there?

Baldanders says four things: (1) Never." (2)

"Baldanders." (3)

"You--strike off." (4) "Tomorrow, then."

The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward

Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?

He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew.

Knew that he was the New Sun to be? something like (you, the New Sun) "Never" (the New Sun will be ) "Baldanders" "You--strike off." (Get the hell out of here) "Tomorrow, then." (we will dispute this another day) something like that? ~witz _______________________________________________

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: ,I had the same thought about striking off heads, then checked the book. Severian interprets Baldanders this way. but as Paul points out Severian is often pretty off base. I think Wolfe does this as misdirection. we get a sort of decent 'explanation' for one of the four statements, but if he's referring to his headsman role, "You--strike off." would end with a question mark. no?

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: I had the same thought about striking off heads, then checked the book. Severian interprets Baldanders this way. but as Paul points out Severian is often pretty off base. I think Wolfe does this as misdirection. we get a sort of decent 'explanation' for one of the four statements, but if he's referring to his headsman role, "You--strike off." would end with a question mark. no?

OT: Has anyone ever read John Myers Myers's Silverlock? Recommend it?

From: Tim Walters <walters at doubtfulpalace.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 8:44:29 PM Subject: (urth) Silverlock OT: Has anyone ever read John Myers Myers's Silverlock? Recommend it?

------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:00:41 -0600 From: "Matthew Groves" <matthewalangroves at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <39ed084f0812291800j7ae2f9fetd825faf2bcd78293 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This scene reminds me of Moby Dick, where Ishmael has to sleep next to Queequeg at the inn. Looking back at Moby Dick, I feel sure Wolfe is referring to Melville here. Melville makes reference several times to a counterpane in Chs. 3 and 4, and Severian writes that before going to bed, "I took of my cloak and spread it on the worn counterpane." I think the bit about striking off is a bit of picaresque humor in the vane of, say, Moby Dick, but it is a mystery to me what Baldanders means about "Never," unless they have something to do with the spooky dreams he reports having had.

------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:00:41 -0600 From: "Matthew Groves" <matthewalangroves at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders

On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:44 PM, Tim Walters wrote: OT: Has anyone ever read John Myers Myers's Silverlock? Recommend it?

Yes to the first, maybe to the second--I love it, and re-read it regularly, but it's easy to imagine someone not liking its mannered and somewhat goofy style. If you like other wise-cracking, Saturday-Evening-Post-ish fantasies of its (rough) period (e.g., The Circus of Dr. Lao, Jurgen, Messer Marco Polo, The Night-Life of the Gods, The Crock Of Gold, Fancies And Goodnights) you should read it post-haste. If not, it still might be worth a shot (since, unlike any of those books except Jurgen and F&G, it transcends that sub-genre), but maybe it shouldn't top your want list.

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 9:28 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: I have always linked these 2 scenes in my mind, but never knew what to make of it .... Homage, perhaps. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:00:41 -0600 From: "Matthew Groves" <matthewalangroves at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders