Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the Holy T

Michael Straight12 Jun 2002, 19:33original as archived

↰ answers Dan'l Danehy-Oakes · by quotation

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On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: So Typhon and his brood create the Whorl, a place in which they can be as gods; they brutally try to suppress all memory of the religions of Urth. Yet hints of these religions creep through, so that the "Vironese Faith" rather resembles Temple Judaism, albeit with many Gods; so that the Trivigauntes have a religion very similar to Islam, except with the sexual roles reversed; and so that there is even some vague memory of the Incarnation.

I assumed that these were deliberate parodies of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc. by Typhon et. al. But since Typhon thought it was all bunk, he inadvertently incorporated bits that connect to the real God - references to Jesus, the Outsider, etc.

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Furthermore, it seems that at the end of Urth of the New Sun, he's somewhat violating His promise never again to destroy the world again by water.

Again, assuming that this is an earlier universal cycle, one can weasel even easier by saying that the promise hasn't yet happened ... but I think that the Urth isn't destroyed by water, it's renewed by water. In fact, one could claim that it's baptised, as Severian himself is in the opening chapter of tBotNS, "Death and Resurrection."

I don't think this works. The New Testament writers use baptism language to describe Noah's flood (and vice versa), but that doesn't mean the Deluge wasn't the thing God promised not to do again. And I don't know how you could define "not destroyed, but renewed" in a way that includes Severian's flood but excludes Noah's. I think the only out is to either assume this is an earlier universe or that we're not supposed to try to literally fit Severian's adventures into Christian Salvation History -- they are an icon of God's work in our world, rather than literal speculation about how our story might continue. -Rostrum

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Well, if I recall, Tzad is a Hierogrammate. But I could be wrong.

P.S. -- Can't resist sharing this: my wife was telling our three-year-old twins stories from the Bible and they pointed to the story of the Plagues of Egypt and wanted to hear it. When she got to the part about Passover and the Angel of Death, one of girls screwed up her face and said, "Angels not do that."

Michael Straight17 Jun 2002, 11:55original as archived

↳ follows Michael Straight · by subject

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On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Jerry Friedman wrote: I assumed that these were deliberate parodies of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc. by Typhon et. al.

The Vironese faith is not in fact that much like Judaism. They share priests sacrificing animals in a temple, but I don't remember private confession, augury, or dancing sibyls in Judaism, and of course there's no polytheism. The haruspication makes it more like the ancient Romans' religion, doesn't it?

Yeah, what I meant is that it's all a mishmash that might have seemed funny to Typhon: "Let's have Christianesque priests worshiping a pantheon of Gods and doing animal sacrifices. Oh and computer, throw together some holy texts from a bunch of random religions. And then lets have version of Islam with the women in charge!" There's probably also a city in the Whorl filled with "Buddhists" who hire people to meditate for them and spend their time partying. -Rostrum