urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3

---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> Subject: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: urth <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <20050602213656.36325.qmail at web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I googled to see if this had been touched on in the archives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me if I'm going over old ground. I'm in the process of reading a collection of short stories by August Derleth, set in Lovecraft's universe. The stories are quite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps Derleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater influence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and the rest and their conflict with the Hiero's. The very fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as Derleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc) against the Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in Orion. There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to the best of my knowledge. There is also mention of some of these creatures living forward in time and plenty of references to something thundering in places beneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of saltus is uncanny). Another persistent theme I have noticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of forbidden knowledge to corrupt. The simple reading of passages from the Necronomicon or the other evil texts from these stories is often enough to set a character on the path to his doom. This makes me wonder about Severian's possession of the Lives of the 17 Megatherians (isn't that one of the books in his sabertache?) and where his loyalties lie. Don __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:46:37 +0200 (CEST) From: nastler <nastler at yahoo.dk> Subject: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <20050603074637.46661.qmail at web54208.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Small point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the sabertache, it stays in the library. The "corrupting" influence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla, who is a good bet for having read 17 Megs... I'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old Ones / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced before, not chewed to the marrow the way things are usually done on this list.... :-) nastler --- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> skrev: I googled to see if this had been touched on in the archives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me if I'm going over old ground. I'm in the process of reading a collection of short stories by August Derleth, set in Lovecraft's universe. The stories are quite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps Derleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater influence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and the rest and their conflict with the Hiero's. The very fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as Derleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc) against the Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in Orion. There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to the best of my knowledge. There is also mention of some of these creatures living forward in time and plenty of references to something thundering in places beneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of saltus is uncanny). Another persistent theme I have noticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of forbidden knowledge to corrupt. The simple reading of passages from the Necronomicon or the other evil texts from these stories is often enough to set a character on the path to his doom. This makes me wonder about Severian's possession of the Lives of the 17 Megatherians (isn't that one of the books in his sabertache?) and where his loyalties lie. Don __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:53:46 +0200 (CEST) From: nastler <nastler at yahoo.dk> Subject: SV: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan To: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>, The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <20050603075346.28346.qmail at web54204.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Or Hethor... --- James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> skrev: Just a general obsession with dolls...treating them like people ala the concern that chaining them would be cruel. My first thought when I read the article was TAD. (shrug) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maru Dubshinki" <marudubshinki at gmail.com> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:56 PM Subject: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan I'm afraid I plumb missed the 'There are doors' connection- I don't see how it ties in. Explanation please? ~Maru On 5/23/05, James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> wrote:

Japanese man gets jail time for 'kidnapping' dolls May 23, 6:12 AM (ET) TOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese man has been sentenced to five-and-a-half years in jail for snatching mannequins used by a cake shop chain to tout its wares. "Peko-chan," a round-eyed doll around the size of a six-year-old, has been used by Fujiya Co. Ltd. to sell sweets for five decades and her grinning countenance is a familiar sight in front of shops around Japan. Recently, however, she has become a favorite of collectors, leading to a rash of "Peko-chan" snatchings. Takeishi Shibuya, 31, was convicted of stealing 15 of the large dolls, valued at about 1.1 million yen ($10,170), a court official in Yamagata prefecture, northern Japan, said on Monday. In several cases, Shibuya used pepper spray and spray paint to fend off store employees, leading prosecutors to demand a sentence of nine years in prison. "But he has reflected on his crimes and feels bad about what he did, so the sentence was lighter as a result," the official said. After a wave of "Peko-chan" disappearances last year, the company suggested chaining the dolls down, but customers complained that this would be cruel. _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

_______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:49:59 +0100 From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk> Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <E1DeBcd-0007VC-GI at oceanus.uk.clara.net> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" nastler writes: Small point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the sabertache, it stays in the library. The "corrupting" influence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla, who is a good bet for having read 17 Megs... I'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old Ones / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced before, not chewed to the marrow the way things are usually done on this list.... :-) nastler I honestly don't think there is much direct reference. However, Lovecraft's "Old Ones" were really non-supernatural alien entities of such power that they could not be distinguished from gods, from the human perspective. It's arguable that he was the first really influential writer to do this - to address the idea of gods, from a rigorously non-supernatural perspective. Wolfe has many non-omnipotent "gods" of this type: Erebus and Abia are godlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing really supernatural about them. . ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:27:42 -0700 From: pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com> Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <2124d6b1050603092713cffcd1 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? Despite lots of scary intimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really have much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind of low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants "swim" through time upon occasion). Or am I missing something? Wolfe has many non-omnipotent "gods" of this type: Erebus and Abia are godlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing really supernatural about them. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:36:43 +0100 From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk> Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com>, The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <E1DeFA3-0004Bt-Ay at oceanus.uk.clara.net> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" pthwndxrclzp writes: What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? Despite lots of scary intimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really have much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind of low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants "swim" through time upon occasion). Or am I missing something? Much like Cthulhu's. They have half-human submarine servitors; they control dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world. But more to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their enslaved human servants. They are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to chappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) From: david at slack.com (David DiGiacomo) Subject: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS) To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <10506031643.AA01346 at slack.com> What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? They resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be immortal. Those are pretty good powers! It's interesting that Severian shares them. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:29:45 +0000 From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <BAY102-F12B4595764CACBB9EC932386070 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I take that "rise in the last days to take the world" bit with a grain of salt; it seems more like a bit of standard mythology crusted on to whatever the original story was. The big bad nasties always rise in the last days to contend for dominion over the world. And any self-respecting big-bad-nasty will make sure everyone fears that, one of these days, it will be back... Andy said: Much like Cthulhu's. They have half-human submarine servitors; they control dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world. But more to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their enslaved human servants. They are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to chappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:28:57 -0500 From: "James Wynn" <thewynns at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <003001c5686a$5db87940$60a3f63f@wynnhouse> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response I honestly don't think there is much direct reference. Maybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on Lovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for "Skai" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of Ulthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT. ~ Crush ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:47:01 -0400 From: Maru Dubshinki <marudubshinki at gmail.com> Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>, The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <f5238c305060311474bea3e47 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6/3/05, James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> wrote:

I honestly don't think there is much direct reference.

Maybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on Lovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for "Skai" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of Ulthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT. ~ Crush I take it that that reference for Skai is drawn for a Lovecraft story? ~Maru ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:48:30 -0400 From: Maru Dubshinki <marudubshinki at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS) To: david at slack.com, The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <f5238c30506031148366ca8ed at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6/3/05, David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com> wrote:

What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"?

They resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be immortal. Those are pretty good powers! It's interesting that Severian shares them. pace Frazer, much magic is 'contagious'. But I think the 'shared' powers are more likely from the New Sun- that's just what UotNS seemed to me to be about. ~Maru ------------------------------