on the setting of short sun

Marc Aramini18 Dec 2007, 04:43as archived

Well, the face of time travel has reared its head again on the Urth discussion list. My arguments that Urth-Lune was Blue Green were never as important to me as the idea that the trees of Blue and Green were creating the vanished people by consuming them, spitting out copies, and causing all the weird stuff in the text to happen (at the end of On Blue's Waters, when Horn says good-bye under the big tree, I fervently believe that it is the end of Horn as narrator and the beginning of Silk as narrator - facilitated by the tree, whereas Horn goes to ride the beast with three horns, babbie.) I believe this link is the entire argument, including polyploidy, time travel, and transubstantiation, for those who have not been exposed to it before. http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm I hope those who have not yet read it have a chance to, but I have little desire to argue about it anymore with the list. Marc

Chris18 Dec 2007, 06:03as archived

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

I actually believe there is a good argument to be made for there being an important shift in the narration at exactly the point you suggest. I think there are a number of plausible reasons for it, though.

"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set." -- Lin Yutang

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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:43:59 -0800 From: marcaramini at yahoo.com To: urth at lists.urth.net Subject: (urth) on the setting of short sun Well, the face of time travel has reared its head again on the Urth discussion list. My arguments that Urth-Lune was Blue Green were never as important to me as the idea that the trees of Blue and Green were creating the vanished people by consuming them, spitting out copies, and causing all the weird stuff in the text to happen (at the end of On Blue's Waters, when Horn says good-bye under the big tree, I fervently believe that it is the end of Horn as narrator and the beginning of Silk as narrator - facilitated by the tree, whereas Horn goes to ride the beast with three horns, babbie.) I believe this link is the entire argument, including polyploidy, time travel, and transubstantiation, for those who have not been exposed to it before. http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm I hope those who have not yet read it have a chance to, but I have little desire to argue about it anymore with the list. Marc ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________

Joe Riley18 Dec 2007, 08:22as archived

↳ in reply to Chris · new subject

7AN

In the midst of all that is being debated: I just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the archives, but I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me: What evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the self-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the question about handwriting, the old woman says, "Perhaps, perhaps," we see nothing to confirm this story as factual.

Joel Sieh18 Dec 2007, 21:04as archived

↳ in reply to Joe Riley

7AN

That's a good question, and I have to admit that I was too lazy after reading it to go back and try to figure it out. Is it safe to assume that at least some of the journal is real? If not, then I think there would be little point to the story, as it would just become an elaborate lie to the main character's family. Maybe we could discover some kind of motivation for the lie, but I don't think it would go much farther than that. So let's assume that at least part of the story is true. Now, from that, I'm tempted to say that the story is true starting at the beginning, but has been completed by someone else. Of course, it would be easy enough for some fabricator to get a whole new journal and replace any parts he wished, but it would be much easier to just "finish" the story.

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From there, we should look for places in which it would make sense for this to happen, like when the main character visits the police station. Voice changes or motivation/plot inconsistencies would be useful clues to help determine fabrication.... However, I don't remember seeing these off the top of the head. Maybe the whole drug-infused candy egg portion of the story is an allusion to a fabrication, but I'm not sure.

Speaking of which, any ideas which day was hallucination day? Anyway, determining if and where there was fabrication should be an interesting exercise in puzzle solving. Sorry that I'm not much help with answers right now. :) I may take this as an opportunity to give the story another look, though. --Joel

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On Dec 18, 2007 3:22 AM, Joe Riley <whamdoodler at yahoo.com> wrote: In the midst of all that is being debated: I just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the archives, but I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me: What evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the self-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the question about handwriting, the old woman says, "Perhaps, perhaps," we see nothing to confirm this story as factual. ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________

stoneox17 at aol.com18 Dec 2007, 22:21as archived

↳ in reply to Joel Sieh

7AN

I think Robert Borski has solved the problem of what happened to the missing night (http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/871.txt.shtml). I don't agree with all the rest of his interpretation, but I think this post, as well as his followups to it, should be read by anybody trying to figure out what is going on in 7AN. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Joel Sieh <joel.sieh at gmail.com> That's a good question, and I have to admit that I was too lazy after reading it to go back and try to figure it out. Is it safe to assume that at least some of the journal is real? If not, then I think there would be little point to the story, as it would just become an elaborate lie to the main character's family. Maybe we could discover some kind of motivation for the lie, but I don't think it would go much farther than that. So let's assume that at least part of the story is true. Now, from that, I'm tempted to say that the story is true starting at the beginning, but has been completed by someone else. Of course, it would be easy enough for some fabricator to get a whole new journal and replace any parts he wished, but it would be much easier to just "finish" the story.

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From there, we should look for places in which it would make sense for this to happen, like when the main character visits the police station. Voice changes or motivation/plot inconsistencies would be useful clues to help determine fabrication.... However, I don't remember seeing these off the top of the head. Maybe the whole drug-infused candy egg portion of the story is an allusion to a fabrication, but I'm not sure.

Speaking of which, any ideas which day was hallucination day? Anyway, determining if and where there was fabrication should be an interesting exercise in puzzle solving. Sorry that I'm not much help with answers right now. :) I may take this as an opportunity to give the story another look, though. --Joel

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On Dec 18, 2007 3:22 AM, Joe Riley <whamdoodler at yahoo.com> wrote: In the midst of all that is being debated: I just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the archives, but I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me: What evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the self-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the question about handwriting, the old woman says, "Perhaps, perhaps," we see nothing to confirm this story as factual. ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.

Try it

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now. _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

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Joe Riley21 Dec 2007, 06:42as archived

↳ in reply to Joel Sieh

7AN

I tend to agree. The unraveling of the body of the story is much the way Borski presented it, but I think the finale is Wolfe's way of saying "Gotcha!", instead of something to be teased out. P.S. Hallucination day had to be the last one, I think. Joel Sieh <joel.sieh at gmail.com> wrote: That's a good question, and I have to admit that I was too lazy after reading it to go back and try to figure it out. Is it safe to assume that at least some of the journal is real? If not, then I think there would be little point to the story, as it would just become an elaborate lie to the main character's family. Maybe we could discover some kind of motivation for the lie, but I don't think it would go much farther than that. So let's assume that at least part of the story is true. Now, from that, I'm tempted to say that the story is true starting at the beginning, but has been completed by someone else. Of course, it would be easy enough for some fabricator to get a whole new journal and replace any parts he wished, but it would be much easier to just "finish" the story.

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From there, we should look for places in which it would make sense for this to happen, like when the main character visits the police station. Voice changes or motivation/plot inconsistencies would be useful clues to help determine fabrication.... However, I don't remember seeing these off the top of the head. Maybe the whole drug-infused candy egg portion of the story is an allusion to a fabrication, but I'm not sure.

Speaking of which, any ideas which day was hallucination day? Anyway, determining if and where there was fabrication should be an interesting exercise in puzzle solving. Sorry that I'm not much help with answers right now. :) I may take this as an opportunity to give the story another look, though. --Joel

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On Dec 18, 2007 3:22 AM, Joe Riley wrote: In the midst of all that is being debated: I just finished reading Seven American Nights. I have perused the archives, but I have an unanswered question that keeps nagging at me: What evidence do we have that the journal is authentic? Between the self-writing machine and the finale, where in response to the question about handwriting, the old woman says, "Perhaps, perhaps," we see nothing to confirm this story as factual. ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

Contributor for Books Under the Bridge - http://www.booksunderthebridge.com - Recommended Sci Fi and Fantasy Literature, Articles, and Humor