Secret of the Inhumi - Please Destroy My Theory

Jordon Flato26 Mar 2009, 20:41as archived

Ok, so I'm re-reading SS now, and have just finished Incanto's story of the Sewer's on Green (at dinner with the Inclinto family). I've been really focused on Krait's secret this read through, and some things have come crashing in on me. Bear with me. I have forgotten much of what happens, detail wise, in the rest of Green's Jungles and RttW, so there is much to destroy my current thinking. For a long time, I've assumed the secret was some variation on the Golden Rule, as some other do as well. Two big problems with that: That isn't much of a threat to have as a secret, as it's not a very plausible thing for humanity to actualize. The variation on that is not Love thy neighbor (no pun intended, although now that I think of it....) but Love thy Enemy...enemy being Inhumi. We see that Horn's love for Krait changes Krait. There is something there. But today, the following occured to me. 1) Isn't there something about how breeding for Inhumi has to take place on green? Isn't that at least implied? 2) The 'civilization' of the Inhumi is on green 3) They require human slaves and food on Green to continue 4) Human slaves are only possible by tricking people on a lander (either from the Whorl or by taking them from Blue, which seems to have happened more than just in Pajarocu). SO: If you destroy all the landers, the breeding/slave cycle would be broken (espcially if you are one of those who think they lie about Conjunction and only get to Blue on Landers). That is something that IS in the power of humans, but would be difficult to accomplish because so many people are still interested in trying to get back to the Whorl. (stuck to the past) What is Silks last action in the story? GOING BACK TO THE WHORL, and THE WHORL LEAVES. There will be no more landers going to Green. There will be no more landers coming from the whorl to green or from blue to green. This is a major change for the Inhumi. They will shortly have no more human slaves on Green, and no way to get them there at all. They will devolve. Also, this, to me, ties into the Sewer scene, which, for me at least, is indicated to be a huge clue for the secret. (Neighbor: No, we are trying to show you how to save yourselves") When he clears out the sewers, the Old Cannibal makes a point of saying "It's what's past"..."You see that, don't you? It's the past holding on." This made me think of the Whorl. People get on Landers to go back to the whorl, because that is the past holding on. Horn clears the sewers. Silk removes the Whorl. Both are reflective symbolic actions, of clearing out the past, which is what the neighbors were trying to show Horn as the way to save humanity. Well? I haven't seen this discussed ont he board in these terms, but on that I could be wildly wrong. Certainly, to me, it is a big reason why Silk taking the Whorl out of the system (and I now DO think it was Silk, with the bit of Pas in him, that makes the Whorl leave the system) now makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Son of Witz26 Mar 2009, 20:47as archived

↳ follows Jordon Flato · by subject

I think it makes a lot of sense, even if there are not other Landers flying from Blue to Green ala Pajarocu. Love how you connected it to the sewer clearing. ~witz

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-----Original Message----- From: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 01:41 PM To: urth at lists.urth.net Subject: (urth) Secret of the Inhumi - Please Destroy My Theory Ok, so I'm re-reading SS now, and have just finished Incanto's story of the Sewer's on Green (at dinner with the Inclinto family). I've been really focused on Krait's secret this read through, and some things have come crashing in on me. Bear with me. I have forgotten much of what happens, detail wise, in the rest of Green's Jungles and RttW, so there is much to destroy my current thinking. For a long time, I've assumed the secret was some variation on the Golden Rule, as some other do as well. Two big problems with that: That isn't much of a threat to have as a secret, as it's not a very plausible thing for humanity to actualize. The variation on that is not Love thy neighbor (no pun intended, although now that I think of it....) but Love thy Enemy...enemy being Inhumi. We see that Horn's love for Krait changes Krait. There is something there. But today, the following occured to me. 1) Isn't there something about how breeding for Inhumi has to take place on green? Isn't that at least implied? 2) The 'civilization' of the Inhumi is on green 3) They require human slaves and food on Green to continue 4) Human slaves are only possible by tricking people on a lander (either from the Whorl or by taking them from Blue, which seems to have happened more than just in Pajarocu). SO: If you destroy all the landers, the breeding/slave cycle would be broken (espcially if you are one of those who think they lie about Conjunction and only get to Blue on Landers). That is something that IS in the power of humans, but would be difficult to accomplish because so many people are still interested in trying to get back to the Whorl. (stuck to the past) What is Silks last action in the story? GOING BACK TO THE WHORL, and THE WHORL LEAVES. There will be no more landers going to Green. There will be no more landers coming from the whorl to green or from blue to green. This is a major change for the Inhumi. They will shortly have no more human slaves on Green, and no way to get them there at all. They will devolve. Also, this, to me, ties into the Sewer scene, which, for me at least, is indicated to be a huge clue for the secret. (Neighbor: No, we are trying to show you how to save yourselves") When he clears out the sewers, the Old Cannibal makes a point of saying "It's what's past"..."You see that, don't you? It's the past holding on." This made me think of the Whorl. People get on Landers to go back to the whorl, because that is the past holding on. Horn clears the sewers. Silk removes the Whorl. Both are reflective symbolic actions, of clearing out the past, which is what the neighbors were trying to show Horn as the way to save humanity. Well? I haven't seen this discussed ont he board in these terms, but on that I could be wildly wrong. Certainly, to me, it is a big reason why Silk taking the Whorl out of the system (and I now DO think it was Silk, with the bit of Pas in him, that makes the Whorl leave the system) now makes a hell of a lot of sense.

David Stockhoff26 Mar 2009, 21:01as archived

↳ follows Son of Witz · by subject

Someone commented here recently that the "secret" was that the inhumi can feed and enslave only because humans kill and enslave one another. They can only do it because they feed on creatures that permit them to continue doing it by making them like themselves. I find this convincing. That is, according to my "mythic" theory, the same as saying that demons are only evil because humans do evil. It's a fairly subtle response to the mythology of demons and the work of Satan. Demons, and inhumi, are morally a symbolic extension of humans' vast capacity for both good and evil. As for the rest of your theory, it seems to make sense.

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------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:41:47 -0700 From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> Subject: (urth) Secret of the Inhumi - Please Destroy My Theory To: urth at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <273409710903261341i198acd9fub1570504ae442f2a at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ok, so I'm re-reading SS now, and have just finished Incanto's story of the Sewer's on Green (at dinner with the Inclinto family). I've been really focused on Krait's secret this read through, and some things have come crashing in on me. Bear with me. I have forgotten much of what happens, detail wise, in the rest of Green's Jungles and RttW, so there is much to destroy my current thinking. For a long time, I've assumed the secret was some variation on the Golden Rule, as some other do as well. Two big problems with that: That isn't much of a threat to have as a secret, as it's not a very plausible thing for humanity to actualize. The variation on that is not Love thy neighbor (no pun intended, although now that I think of it....) but Love thy Enemy...enemy being Inhumi. We see that Horn's love for Krait changes Krait. There is something there. But today, the following occured to me.

Jordon Flato26 Mar 2009, 21:07as archived

↳ in reply to David Stockhoff

Yeah, I have that thought as well, in terms of humans not killing and enslaving each other. There can be no doubt that that is a big part of the thematic exploration of the human/inhumi relationship, and it may indeed be the secret. It is valid, and a part of the narrative, whether it's the secret or not. The things that lead me to think it might not be the secret are that it isn't something that is really possible. People have been trying to live that way forever, and they don't. Horn telling everyone that they need to be that way to stop the Inhumi may effect some, but it wouldn't change humanity as a whole, although maybe it would. In any event, we ARE meant to come to that conclusion about Humans and Inhumi, the same way we are meant to see the results of ACTUALLY loving one's enemy, in the form of Horn/Krait. But, I can't find the resonance in that idea in the Sewers. I'm certain that the sewers are meant to be an enormous clue in the Secret, about how humanity can save itself. I could be wrong, but the neighbors comment seems to support that. Even if it isn't the secret, the fact that green will no longer have humans once the Whorl is gone, and the resonance with the Sewer is all new stuff to me, and makes this read through very interesting.

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On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:01 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote: Someone commented here recently that the "secret" was that the inhumi can feed and enslave only because humans kill and enslave one another. They can only do it because they feed on creatures that permit them to continue doing it by making them like themselves. I find this convincing. That is, according to my "mythic" theory, the same as saying that demons are only evil because humans do evil. It's a fairly subtle response to the mythology of demons and the work of Satan. Demons, and inhumi, are morally a symbolic extension of humans' vast capacity for both good and evil. As for the rest of your theory, it seems to make sense. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:41:47 -0700 From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> Subject: (urth) Secret of the Inhumi - Please Destroy My Theory To: urth at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <273409710903261341i198acd9fub1570504ae442f2a at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ok, so I'm re-reading SS now, and have just finished Incanto's story of the Sewer's on Green (at dinner with the Inclinto family). I've been really focused on Krait's secret this read through, and some things have come crashing in on me. Bear with me. I have forgotten much of what happens, detail wise, in the rest of Green's Jungles and RttW, so there is much to destroy my current thinking. For a long time, I've assumed the secret was some variation on the Golden Rule, as some other do as well. Two big problems with that: That isn't much of a threat to have as a secret, as it's not a very plausible thing for humanity to actualize. The variation on that is not Love thy neighbor (no pun intended, although now that I think of it....) but Love thy Enemy...enemy being Inhumi. We see that Horn's love for Krait changes Krait. There is something there. But today, the following occured to me. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090325-0, 03/25/2009 Tested on: 3/26/2009 5:01:36 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________

James Wynn26 Mar 2009, 21:55as archived

↳ in reply to Jordon Flato

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1) Isn't there something about how breeding for Inhumi has to take place on green? Isn't that at least implied?

Inhumi can only give birth and rear their young on Green.

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2) The 'civilization' of the Inhumi is on green

True. But it is merely a twisted human form of civilization.

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3) They require human slaves and food on Green to continue

I think they are capable of surviving by feeding on non-humans. The reason they want humans on Green is so they will be more accessible to inhuma to ensoul their children.

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4) Human slaves are only possible by tricking people on a lander (either from the Whorl or by taking them from Blue, which seems to have happened more than just in Pajarocu). SO: If you destroy all the landers, the breeding/slave cycle would be broken

No. But it would be harder if landers stopped going to Green entirely. They still have a population on Blue. If stopping the landers to Green were all it took, then I'm sure the Mainframe workers could have figured out a way to have the monitors never schedule trips to Green anymore. Anyway, in RTTW Silk receives a word from Pas that it is not necessary for anymore Cargo to disembark the Whorl. He's going to stop making the Cargo miserable there to force them to disembark. So mission accomplished there already.

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(espcially if you are one of those who think they lie about Conjunction and only get to Blue on Landers).

I just can't see a point to this beyond orneriness on Wolfe's part (not that that is not reason enough). There's no actual evidence that I know of that the inhumi don't cross that way. Some readers just find it implausible. But Wolfe is criticized for this all the time. Anyway, I don't think the landers refuel at the Whorl, do they? So they will eventually stop on their own. [snip]

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Also, this, to me, ties into the Sewer scene, which, for me at least, is indicated to be a huge clue for the secret. (Neighbor: No, we are trying to show you how to save yourselves") When he clears out the sewers, the Old Cannibal makes a point of saying "It's what's past"..."You see that, don't you? It's the past holding on." This made me think of the Whorl. People get on Landers to go back to the whorl, because that is the past holding on.

Hmmm...at first I thought you were going to suggest this quote means that Urth is Green or Blue. That would be a compelling reference, I suppose.

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Horn clears the sewers. Silk removes the Whorl. Both are reflective symbolic actions, of clearing out the past, which is what the neighbors were trying to show Horn as the way to save humanity. [snip] Certainly, to me, it is a big reason why Silk taking the Whorl out of the system now makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Well, I don't think I can prove this is NOT so. But I don't think the landers are so pivotal as you theory implies.

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(and I now DO think it was Silk, with the bit of Pas in him, that makes the Whorl leave the system)

Oh wait! You mean this makes you agree with me about this? Then, in that case, it must be so! ;-)

Jordon Flato26 Mar 2009, 22:13as archived

↳ in reply to James Wynn

Some great points here, but let me refine a bit: I'm not saying the inhumi would die, but would devolve back into some other form. Horn explicitly states that if he used the secret, the inhumi would become no more dangerous than crocodiles. So if there is no human population on Green, that might make it more difficult for them to get human food. I think they are capable of surviving by feeding on non-humans. The reason

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they want humans on Green is so they will be more accessible to inhuma to ensoul their children.

This is what I'm saying! That is it, if there aren't humans on green, it's harder to ensoul their children. Although if Kraits mother took the soul from Sinew, then she must have gone back to Green during Conjunction, and therefore you wouldn't need Landers at all, which kills part of my theory.

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No. But it would be harder if landers stopped going to Green entirely. They still have a population on Blue. If stopping the landers to Green were all it took, then I'm sure the Mainframe workers could have figured out a way to have the monitors never schedule trips to Green anymore. Anyway, in RTTW Silk receives a word from Pas that it is not necessary for anymore Cargo to disembark the Whorl. He's going to stop making the Cargo miserable there to force them to disembark. So mission accomplished there already.

I don't see why, if Mainframe knew about what was happening on Green, they wouldn't stop the Landers from going to Green anyway. I hardly see why, if they knew what was going on, they wouldn't have stoped it already, so I don't think that tracks.

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I just can't see a point to this beyond orneriness on Wolfe's part (not that that is not reason enough). There's no actual evidence that I know of that the inhumi don't cross that way. Some readers just find it implausible. But Wolfe is criticized for this all the time. Anyway, I don't think the landers refuel at the Whorl, do they? So they will eventually stop on their own.

I DO think the Inhumi travel across the void during conjunction, so I'm actually not one of those people... And the bit about fuel is intriguing. I wonder how much fuel they have in them? Seems like the Pajarocu lander has made at least several trips.... Hmmm...at first I thought you were going to suggest this quote means that

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Urth is Green or Blue. That would be a compelling reference, I suppose.

I don't buy the Urth as Green or Blue idea. I see far far too much against the idea, as neat as it is. There is some resonance in the Sewer scene that I'm struggling with yet.

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Well, I don't think I can prove this is NOT so. But I don't think the landers are so pivotal as you theory implies.

I would agree. My post lunch excitement about this idea is fast draining. Must have been a curry buzz or something.

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(and I now DO think it was Silk, with the bit of Pas in him, that makes the Whorl leave the system)

Oh wait! You mean this makes you agree with me about this? Then, in that case, it must be so! ;-) I do agree. I think Pas and Silk have bonded. Seriously bonded. And I think removing the Whorl does remove the Past for those on Blue.

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Jordon Flato27 Mar 2009, 16:16as archived

↳ in reply to Jordon Flato

After more reading, especially the scene where Krait confides his secret to Horn, I've decided what I said has nothing at all to do with the secret. The secret is clearly specifically tied to 'another reason they have to feed on humans'. Doesn't negate the significance of the Whorl leaving, or the resonances with the Sewers, but my ideas have no bearing at all on the Secret of the Inhumi. Carry on.

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On 3/26/09, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote: Some great points here, but let me refine a bit: I'm not saying the inhumi would die, but would devolve back into some other form. Horn explicitly states that if he used the secret, the inhumi would become no more dangerous than crocodiles. So if there is no human population on Green, that might make it more difficult for them to get human food. I think they are capable of surviving by feeding on non-humans. The reason they want humans on Green is so they will be more accessible to inhuma to ensoul their children.

This is what I'm saying! That is it, if there aren't humans on green, it's harder to ensoul their children. Although if Kraits mother took the soul from Sinew, then she must have gone back to Green during Conjunction, and therefore you wouldn't need Landers at all, which kills part of my theory.

No. But it would be harder if landers stopped going to Green entirely. They still have a population on Blue. If stopping the landers to Green were all it took, then I'm sure the Mainframe workers could have figured out a way to have the monitors never schedule trips to Green anymore. Anyway, in RTTW Silk receives a word from Pas that it is not necessary for anymore Cargo to disembark the Whorl. He's going to stop making the Cargo miserable there to force them to disembark. So mission accomplished there already.

I don't see why, if Mainframe knew about what was happening on Green, they wouldn't stop the Landers from going to Green anyway. I hardly see why, if they knew what was going on, they wouldn't have stoped it already, so I don't think that tracks.

I just can't see a point to this beyond orneriness on Wolfe's part (not that that is not reason enough). There's no actual evidence that I know of that the inhumi don't cross that way. Some readers just find it implausible. But Wolfe is criticized for this all the time. Anyway, I don't think the landers refuel at the Whorl, do they? So they will eventually stop on their own.

I DO think the Inhumi travel across the void during conjunction, so I'm actually not one of those people... And the bit about fuel is intriguing. I wonder how much fuel they have in them? Seems like the Pajarocu lander has made at least several trips.... Hmmm...at first I thought you were going to suggest this quote means that Urth is Green or Blue. That would be a compelling reference, I suppose.

I don't buy the Urth as Green or Blue idea. I see far far too much against the idea, as neat as it is. There is some resonance in the Sewer scene that I'm struggling with yet.

Well, I don't think I can prove this is NOT so. But I don't think the landers are so pivotal as you theory implies.

I would agree. My post lunch excitement about this idea is fast draining. Must have been a curry buzz or something.

(and I now DO think it was Silk, with the bit of Pas in him, that makes the Whorl leave the system)

Oh wait! You mean this makes you agree with me about this? Then, in that case, it must be so! ;-) I do agree. I think Pas and Silk have bonded. Seriously bonded. And I think removing the Whorl does remove the Past for those on Blue.

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