Urth Digest, Vol 120, Issue 59

Send Urth mailing list submissions to urth at lists.urth.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to urth-request at lists.urth.net You can reach the person managing the list at urth-owner at lists.urth.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Baldanders' dream (Gerry Quinn) 2. Re: Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I (Gerry Quinn) 3. 5HC (Lee) 4. Re: Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I (Brad Henry) 5. Short Story 101: A Solar Labyrinth (Marc Aramini) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:59:20 +0100 From: Gerry Quinn To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: Re: (urth) Baldanders' dream Message-ID: <53F72288.7050603 at bindweed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 21/08/2014 17:20, Lee wrote:

Gerry Quinn: Echidna is, but the Cumaean isn't, so it hardly ties the two characters. Snakes and caves do not an Echidna make.

I find them to be sufficiently linked. It is to be remembered that the Cumaean is the leader of the Witches in BotNS. There is a constellation of traits including snakes, witchcraft and caves which link such Greco-Roman female mythological characters as Echidna, Lamia, Hecate, the Pythian Oracle and the Cumaean Sibyl.

Note the plural in "characters". It seems to bear out what I said; snakes and caves do not uniquely identify a character.

Besides, she's not necessarily a snake:

"Snake-like" or "snake-associated" would be more accurate descriptors. Mythological Echidna was not a "snake" but she had snakey attributes.

She shares no obvious personality characteristics with Echidna.

I'm not sure what "personality characteristics" you might be referring to. But, Echidna, in Long Sun, clearly has snakey attributes and was quite notably involved in an incident of human sacrifice. The Cumaean also has snakey attributes and is associated with human sacrifice. (Hopefully the connection between human sacrifice and Apu Punchau doesn't need to be explained; The Cumaean's "s?ance" is not quite what it seems).

Frankly, it does have to be explained - it is certainly not a direct link. In any case, human sacrifice was not unique to a single god in Long Sun. As for personality characteristics, I mean things like the Cumaean's interest in witchcraft and archeology, and Echidna's rather prudish interest in the virginity of the priesthood, and her killing of Pas to preserve her rule over the Whorl. They don't seem at all like the same person.

Typhon and Scylla from Long Sun are mentioned in BotNS (and Short Sun). Echidna is not mentioned in BotNS by name, but given the combination of cave-dwelling, snake association, witchcraft and human sacrifice, I think Wolfe has given us enough clues to find her in BotNS. Just my opinion, of course.

It would take a lot more in the way of 'clues' to convince me that two seemingly unrelated characters, who never appear in the same series of books, are one and the same. And as so often, I find myself asking: Why? What purpose of Wolfe's would it serve to make them the same anyway? Even if you identify them, where's the moment you say "ah, that's why the Cumaean did X, in order to fulfil Project Y of Echidna's?" - Gerry Quinn ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:05:09 +0100 From: Gerry Quinn To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: Re: (urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I Message-ID: <53F723E5.8010201 at bindweed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" On 22/08/2014 08:10, marcobadie at katamail.com wrote:

My third post at the Urth list. Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my first posts. My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just dead. Next. When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation of the subjects of Abaia. In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the baptism. The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one). Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation).

I'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman - might she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard her corpse that night? The rest works for me; Severian was arguably baptised, confirmed and received the Eucharist of the Church of Abaia/Vodalus as you say - but in the end he abjured that faith... - Gerry Quinn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:59:33 -0400 From: Lee To: "urth at urth.net" Subject: (urth) 5HC Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Gerry Quinn: I mean, what would actually be Wolfe's purpose in intending

an alternate story? In what way is a story of two rival aboriginal races,

one of which clearly believes its ancestors are human but is incorrect

despite its human memories, better than one in which there is one aboriginal race, and one that is of human ancestry just as they say?

Antonio Pedro Marques: ...making the whole exploration of identity more profound.

I feel Antonio has the answer. One can take a minimalist approach to interpreting the novel and assume it is just one person who is killed and replaced. (keeping in mind that before the corroboration of this in a Wolfe interview, some skeptics felt doubt over whether Dr. Marsch was replaced). Or one can extrapolate the story to the fullest in which every character in the book is struggling with personal identity issues (including #5's family but for different reasons there). The advantage to the expanded interpretation is that it allows this book to serve as a sort of Proustian allegory for the human race. It allows Wolfe to express the sentiment that if we humans think about ourselves deeply enough, none of us really knows who we really are or where we really came from. Not everyone enjoys thinking about themselves or the human race in this manner but this level of interpretation of 5HC exists for those who do let their thoughts drift in this direction.

The abo who replaced Marsch, and who would seem well equipped to know...

No. You seem to be assuming that the killing and replacement of humans is a conscious function of these creatures. I (and others) are seeing the opposite: The drive for killing and imitation is an unconscious instinct. The reason for this is that a conscious awareness that you have killed and replaced somebody would hinder your ability to imitate them. So from Shadow Children to Abos to Victor/Dr. Marsch there is a strong self-delusion happening, driving each imitator to think they really are their victim and to invent whatever lie is needed to perpetrate that delusion. Thus Victor does not continue writing in Dr. Marsch's personal journal to trick other people into thinking he is Dr. Marsch. He does it primarily to trick himself.

....does not believe in Veil's Hypothesis.

Exactly. How could an Abo believe in a theory which would expose his deception?

(Indeed, Veil herself provided a reason to disbelieve it any, pointing out her

motivations for wanting to believe it.)

So Dr. Veil both formulates and disbelieves her theory that humans on these planets have been replaced. Once again, Wolfe gives us a choice. Which story do YOU believe?

The relaxation method (not principle) was invoked by Marsch to describe what has happened to the clone sequence whose end-product is currently No. 5 - each is now nearly identical to the previous one.

No. Marsch is using this principle to explain to Number Five why his chain of clones approach is NOT working. There is no adjustment. No adaptation. This is meant as irony, coming from a being who is (unconsciously) a master of adjustment and adaptation. Number Five and Maitre's burning frustration is illustrated in the dream sequence. In the dream, the captain will not untether the ship until he can figure out what is tying the ship to the dock. They (Number 5/Maitre) consider themselves superior but don't understand why they can't even achieve mastery of this one backwater planet. Number Five doesn't want to hear it, but the answer to his question is given by "Victor" in the guise of Dr. Marsch. Adjustment and adaptation, the exact abilities which have allowed the native, imitative species to take over both planets. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:31:50 -0400 From: Brad Henry

To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: Re: (urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" For what its worth, this description is very close to both the New Testament (baptised into christ's death, etc...) understanding of baptism and the Catechism (that develops more fully the connection between the noah-flood, the arc, and baptism). On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 5:25 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:

I like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new sun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a bit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals the sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus est - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood and the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water is rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood of genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to healing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood of renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin to warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist. Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the baptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...) On Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com < > marcobadie at katamail.com> wrote:

My third post at the Urth list. Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my first posts. My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just dead. Next. When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation of the subjects of Abaia. In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the baptism. The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one). Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation). Next post: Catherine and the Undine Marco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english).

_______________________________________________