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RTTW (spoilers)Whorl

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james.kellar03 Feb 2001, 10:52originalas archived
RTTW (spoilers)
have I understood correctly, do you think, that the Neighbours sent representatives to the Whorl when it arrived in the Blue/Green system? do we have any clues as to who these might be? I wonder if they could be connected with the (horrible) godling? gerbil *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.
michael braithwaite03 Feb 2001, 19:26originalas archived
↳ follows james.kellar · by subject
<html><DIV> <P>Gerbil wrote<BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>&gt;have I understood correctly, do you think, that the Neighbours sent representatives to the Whorl <DIV></DIV>&gt;when it arrived in the Blue/Green system? <DIV></DIV>&gt;do we have any clues as to who these might be? I wonder if they could be connected with the <DIV></DIV>&gt;(horrible) godling? <DIV></DIV>&gt; <DIV></DIV> <P>&gt;gerbil </P> <P>&nbsp;</P> <P>Horn says that the Neighbors sent the inhumi to the Whorl before Windcloud and other Neighbors went there (p235). The godlings seem&nbsp; to be controlled by Mainframe so&nbsp;they probably came from embryos like Silk, Mucor and Pig.</P><br clear=all><hr>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</a>.<br></p></html> *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.
Ian Smith06 Feb 2001, 19:53originalas archived
↳ follows michael braithwaite · by subject
RTTW (SPOILERS)
Just finished RTTWand heartily confused at the ending. Will someone who is more able please alleviate my stupidity by explaining exactly what happened in that last scene with Remora, esp. what the 'Hyacinth' passage from the writings indicated? Having read the posts, I also have a couple more pennies-worth of my own to stick in: From Nacre's post: "I would never have used it while
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Nettle was alive", confused me, Jahlee didn't kill Nettle, did she? Didn't Nettle go with Silk and Marble? [snip]
For the most part, I agree with David DiGiacomo's answers. For the question above, though, I'd suggest that it's another example of Horn's and Silk's mem- ories mixing. "It" is the azoth, if I recall correctly (I don't have the book here to check); he says "Nettle" but means, I think, Hyacinth. Note, if you will, that this error is the opposite of the ones he was making at the beginning of OBW; at that time, Hyacinth's name often appeared when he meant Nettle, but by this point, the substitutions have entirely reversed themselves." I checked back, and it's the method of communicating with the Mother which the narrator "would never have used while Nettle was alive". At the time of reading I presumed he was speaking in the past tense because he was convinced he was about to die (or at least 'cease to exist') and so would never get to use it. However, presumably Silk subsequently did, as Seawrack then appears pretty quickly afterward. And from cephalothorax: "> "I would never have used it while Nettle was alive",
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confused me, Jahlee didn't kill Nettle, did she? Didn't Nettle go with Silk and Marble?
No and No." I understood Nettle DID sail with the rest back to Pajorocou, which is why Nettle is "making her own"[goodbyes] whilst Horn/Silk is talking to Daisy [p411] and why Daisy hopes "he and his eerie young woman, Nettle the old sibyl, and their bird [are] on course upon a greater sea" [p412]. Of course, as I've already admitted I don't understand the end, I could just be plain wrong... and another from cephelothorax: "Persnickety: Are we really meant to believe that Severian, who writes about Master Ash, and the Green Man, and being a white fountain hundreds of years before he's born is going to consider "Horn" too much of a stretch for his readers to believe because he's got the love-vibe and walks through walls?" On this I'm no more certain, but I got the distinct impression that the apprentice Severian was under the impression that Horn / Silk's spirit was actually Malrubius' ghost (hence his comment to Gurloes about Oreb), which of course does get mentioned frequently throughout TBOTNS( & he certainly pairs Malrubius with Triskele a fair bit). Whether Wolfe has managed the phenomenal task of tying the ends up, we won't know until someone has the energy to re-read TBOTNS looking for them. Surely such a thing is impossible, but I'm trying not to make the mistake of under-estimating Wolfe... Ian I *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.
mark millman06 Feb 2001, 16:15originalas archived
↳ follows Ian Smith · by subject
RTTW (SPOILERS)
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At 07:53 PM 06-02-01 -0000, Ian Smith wrote: From Nacre's post:
"I would never have used it while Nettle was alive", confused me, Jahlee didn't kill Nettle, did she? Didn't Nettle go with Silk and Marble? [snip]
For the most part, I agree with David DiGiacomo's answers. For the ques- tion above, though, I'd suggest that it's another example of Horn's and Silk's memories mixing. "It" is the azoth, if I recall correctly (I don't have the book here to check); he says "Nettle" but means, I think, Hyacinth. Note, if you will, that this error is the opposite of the ones he was making at the begin- ning of OBW; at that time, Hyacinth's name often appeared when he meant Nettle, but by this point, the substitu- tions have entirely reversed themselves." I checked back, and it's the method of communicating with the Mother which the narrator "would never have used while Nettle was alive". At the time of reading I presumed he was speaking in the past tense because he was convinced he was about to die (or at least 'cease to exist') and so would never get to use it. However, presumably Silk subsequently did, as Seawrack then appears pretty quickly afterward. [snip] Ian
Whoops! Thanks for the correction, Ian; and so much for my decaying memory. Nacre *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.
Adam Stephanides07 Feb 2001, 23:18originalas archived
↳ follows mark millman · by subject
RTTW (SPOILERS)
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on 2/6/01 7:53 PM, Ian Smith at doctoriancsmith at hotmail.com wrote: Just finished RTTWand heartily confused at the ending. Will someone who is more able please alleviate my stupidity by explaining exactly what happened in that last scene with Remora, esp. what the 'Hyacinth' passage from the writings indicated?
The person we have been thinking of as Horn in Silk's body is actually Silk with Horn's memories. Silk could not admit to himself that he was Silk because that would mean admitting that Hyacinth was dead. The Hyacinth passage enabled Silk to accept this. I have to admit I was caught completely by surprise. Now, of course, I'll have to reread all three volumes in this light. --Adam *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.
Spectacled Bear08 Feb 2001, 18:04originalas archived
↳ follows Adam Stephanides · by subject
RTTW (SPOILERS)
At 19:53 2001-02-06 -0000, Ian wrote: ...
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Having read the posts, I also have a couple more pennies-worth of my own to stick in: From Nacre's post: "I would never have used it while Nettle was alive", confused me, Jahlee didn't kill Nettle, did she? Didn't Nettle go with Silk and Marble?
...
1 quoted line
I checked back, and it's the method of communicating with the Mother which the narrator "would never have used while Nettle was alive". At the time of reading I presumed he was speaking in the past tense because he was convinced he was about to die (or at least 'cease to exist') and so would never get to use it. However, presumably Silk subsequently did, as Seawrack then appears pretty quickly afterward.
Yes - it's definitely Horn speaking at the time, and he never does use it. It's Silk who does that. I don't know exactly what happens to Horn when Silk recovers himself, but it's pretty terminal: he anticipates Remora's return as that of an executioner, and Silk talks to Daisy about having more or less killed Hoof and Hide's father. Spectacled Bear.
David DiGiacomo08 Feb 2001, 10:29originalas archived
↳ follows Spectacled Bear · by subject
RTTW (SPOILERS)
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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net> The person we have been thinking of as Horn in Silk's body is actually Silk with Horn's memories. Silk could not admit to himself that he was Silk because that would mean admitting that Hyacinth was dead. The Hyacinth passage enabled Silk to accept this.
I would just add to this that the Neighbor told Horn "I can send your spirit into someone else" - spirit, not memories. In retrospect, Fava's afterlife was a good clue. *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.

Continues in “RTTW - spoilers” → 2 messages, from 08 Feb 2001

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