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Index · 4 messages · 4 voices · 05 Nov – 06 Nov 1999

Baptism vs. Resurrection

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Ouroboros05 Nov 1999, 21:23originalas archived
Baptism vs. Resurrection
<<<<Nessus? I can be mistaken, but I think you mean the river Gyoll (is this the correct spelling?). This could be a Christian paralel, anyway: not with the resurrection of Christ -- wich, anyway, marks the end of Jesus's "career" on Earth --, but the Baptism by John.>>> Oops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos. However, the Baptism of John is a not a good match IMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The nenuphar represents death because "under flower and leaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark waters" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the life-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian makes a straight-forward comparison between the necropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's nenuphars. The Gyoll=grave. Now, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of death, but the symbol is in crossing the river, not sinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross the Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the baptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not the kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol of burial and resurection is top heavy. Finally, in orthodox theology it is at his resurrection when Jesus' real career began. When Christian's are baptized at their conversion or as infants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection. Of course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year period between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm chasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a Christian. I suppose it's possible both things symbols are being used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ seems to fit better than his baptism by John.
Daniel Fusch06 Nov 1999, 07:18originalas archived
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Also consider that Severian's "baptism" occurs during the ceremony in which he enters the guild. Master Palaemon sprinkles water upon his brow, if I remember aright. Later, in "The Claw of the Conciliator," Severian also partakes of a depraved parody of communion--so the sacraments appear in ritual. I agree with Ouroboros. The drowning scene seems more like a resurrection than a baptism.
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From: Ouroboros <ottofaij at yahoo.com> Reply-To: urth at lists.best.com To: urth at lists.best.com Subject: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:23:19 -0800 (PST) <<<<Nessus? I can be mistaken, but I think you mean the river Gyoll (is this the correct spelling?). This could be a Christian paralel, anyway: not with the resurrection of Christ -- wich, anyway, marks the end of Jesus's "career" on Earth --, but the Baptism by John.>>> Oops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos. However, the Baptism of John is a not a good match IMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The nenuphar represents death because "under flower and leaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark waters" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the life-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian makes a straight-forward comparison between the necropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's nenuphars. The Gyoll=grave. Now, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of death, but the symbol is in crossing the river, not sinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross the Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the baptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not the kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol of burial and resurection is top heavy. Finally, in orthodox theology it is at his resurrection when Jesus' real career began. When Christian's are baptized at their conversion or as infants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection. Of course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year period between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm chasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a Christian. I suppose it's possible both things symbols are being used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ seems to fit better than his baptism by John. --Ouroboros __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com works
Carlos Martinho06 Nov 1999, 08:00originalas archived
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I suppose it's possible both things symbols are being used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ seems to fit better than his baptism by John.
Thanks for the impressive amount of info & insight! I read the books almost an year ago, and I didn't remmembered all the death-sybbols at the Gyoll submersion -- I was mostly guessing when I wrote about the baptism. Anyway, now I really believe that both symbols (resurrection and baptism) are entangled in the Gyoll episode. After all, Severian's "public career" begins after the submersion, just as Jesus's... ===== "The nostalgia of things unknown, of lands forgotten or unfound, is upon me at times. Often I long for the gleam of yellow suns upon terraces of translucent azure marble, mocking the windless waters of lakes unfathomably calm" Clark Ashton Smith, "Nostalgia of the Unknown"
Jim Henley06 Nov 1999, 11:18originalas archived
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-----Original Message----- From: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Martinho Thanks for the impressive amount of info & insight! I read the books almost an year ago, and I didn't remmembered all the death-sybbols at the Gyoll submersion -- I was mostly guessing when I wrote about the baptism. Anyway, now I really believe that both symbols (resurrection and baptism) are entangled in the Gyoll episode. After all, Severian's "public career" begins after the submersion, just as Jesus's...
Doesn't "immersive" baptism always represent death and rebirth? The old self drowns and the new, sanctified self rises. Except ye be born again ye shall not enter . . . and all that. Best, Jim

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