urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15

turin16 Jun 2005, 23:16as archived

/******************* unless it's titled The Tertiary Roots of Cyberpunk: The stories that influenced the well-read authors whoinfluenced the authors that rode the crest of the Cyberpunk wave. *******************/ That is it exactly. I have no clue about the geneaology of scifi. I wouldn't put Wolfe in a cyberpunk anthology at all and he is a genuine "literary" author in the sense that he defies genre, of content not form, identification. I was simply wondering about the "distance" between Wolfe and cyberpunk and note the thematic similarities between Wolfe's work and the Ghost in the Shell films in particular. There is an article (one I happen to disagree with) in technology review entitled Against Transcendance and Bruce Sterling is quotes as saying that transcendance is what comes with the territory when writing science fiction. It -does- seem to be a convention now, at least in the majority of the most of the important ones, but maybe I am biased towards transcendance, in fact, I am. I wonder when, in the literature, Sterling's statement becomes really applicable, because it seems to me that he is right. also I'd very much like to hear what you think cyberpunk is and as I said its geneaology besides Snyder..... or merely what was said in the class. I don't know if anyone has written anything about the evolution of scifi in a taxonomical way.... I wonder what it would look like considering the volume of material and how recent the most interesting and important were written. Teaching a class on cyberpunk sounds very interesting though very specialized. EOT;

turin16 Jun 2005, 23:47as archived

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↰ continues urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 14, 5HC : Unbound Simulator, "There Are Doors", gene wolfe and cyberpunk

Wait a second? David Snyder, I do not know. Is he this guy? David L Snyder Production Designer, Art Director Roles Production Designer: 2001 - The One 2000 - The Whole Nine Yards 1994 - Terminal Velocity 1993 - Demolition Man 1993 - Super Mario Bros. 1989 - Cold Dog Soup 1989 - She’s Out of Control 1988 - Moving 1987 - Summer School 1986 - Back to School 1985 - Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure 1984 - Racing with the Moon 1984 - The Woman in Red 1983 - Strange Brew 1982 - Starflight: The Plane That Couldn’t Land Art Director: 1986 - Armed and Dangerous Oh and as for the acronyms for Ghost in the Shell (I was speaking of the Oshii films only.) Ghost in the Shell (the Oshii film) Ghost in the Shell II: Innocence (the second Oshii film) Ghost in the Shell:Stand Alone Complex The manga (comic) of Ghost in the Shell Shirow Masamune and Ac Adult Swim: Cartoon Network after hours. EOT; --- urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net wrote: From: urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:08:41 -0700 (PDT) To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Subject: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15 Send urth-urth.net mailing list submissions to urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net You can reach the person managing the list at urth-urth.net-owner at lists.urth.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of urth-urth.net digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 14 (Jim Raylor) 2. 5HC : Unbound Simulator (Jim Raylor) 3. Re: "There Are Doors" (Dan) 4. Re: 5HC : Unbound Simulator (Dan'l Danehy-Oakes) 5. gene wolfe and cyberpunk (Dan) 6. RE: 5HC : Unbound Simulator (Chris) 7. Re: Re: "There Are Doors" (Adrian Robert) 8. Is this a BotNS illustration? (Hmpf MacSlow)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:50:46 +0100 (BST) From: Jim Raylor <rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: (urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 14 To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <20050616125046.77626.qmail at web25706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 thapaguru wrote:

I doubt Wolfe is cyberpunk. CP mainly deals with a near future or alternate reality where technology has created a bizarre society or people.

Not to mention where crime and drug use is so prominent, even among the "heroes" of the story....oh wait, have you read "The Fifth Head of Cerberus?" :) -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > Near Future? Drugs, crime and general bizarre social disintegration? I've just read Operation Ares - is this the first Cyberpunk Novel or what? ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net End of urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 14 ********************************************* http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ I am not a number I am a free person! ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:19:53 +0100 (BST) From: Jim Raylor <rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: (urth) 5HC : Unbound Simulator To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <20050616131953.77237.qmail at web25703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My own theories on the significance of M. Million being an unbound simulator are probably idiosyncratic. Playfully I will suggest the M. stands for M. Million, making his full name Million Million Million etc. This distinguishes him from a finite or bound simulator. Given infinite processing capacity could a machine simulate humanity? It has been observed elsewhere thet M. Million seems the most humane member of the household... Also pure word association makes me think of Prometheus. Viewing 5HOC as a whodunnit, or more precisely a whodunwhat, M Million should not be disregarded as a suspect but I personally believe him innocent of murder. Some aspects of this character (M. M.) are reminiscent of Ossipago http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ I am not a number I am a free person! ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:58:22 -0500 From: Dan <autarch at vippn.com> Subject: (urth) Re: "There Are Doors" To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050616075732.042328f0 at pop.vippn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed On Jun 2, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Dan wrote:

Oddly enough, i just finished reading There Are Doors this morning. It was the best Philip K. Dick novel I ever read that was not written by Philip K. Dick. What of Mr. Klamm's relationship to Mr. Green? Same guy at two different times or just two different blokes in the same circumstances (only one is beginiing his pursuit and the other nearing the end)?

Hi, It's been a while since I've read it so I won't answer this here, but, if you haven't already, read The Castle by Kafka. It really deepens the experience, and a lot of things will fall into different perspectives.. enjoy, Adrian Thanks Adrian. Though Kafka's been highly recommended before, I just never got around to reading him. The new translation sounds interesting. I seem to be accumulating a list of prerequisites needed to expand my appreciation of Wolfe and reveal the subtleties of his works. It currently includes learning Latin and getting a Master's in Classic Mythology! From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com: Klamm could best be described as a priest (perhaps the high priest) of Cybele/Rhea. The same could be said to be true of Green, but Green is also supposedly Attis/Dionysus. Since the priests of Cybele actually emulate Attis, there's obviously going to be a close, apparent relationship there. But I think we are led to believe that Green is "the real deal", so to speak. I was thinking of the way Klamm refers to Green as Herr K and his later apology and explanation as to why. It just seemed like one of those weird moments like in 2001 where Dave Bowman turns around and sees his older self lying in bed. If that was the case, interesting that Klamm didn't try to warn him off his pursuit, or that Green was so blinded by desire that he didn't have the insight to deduce Klamm's identity. Dan ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:21:25 -0700 From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) 5HC : Unbound Simulator To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <1f761737050616072153968585 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6/16/05, Jim Raylor <rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Playfully I will suggest the M. stands for M. Million, making his full name Million Million Million etc. Ummm... I think it's short for "Monsieur." --Dan'l

I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him. -- St Teresa of Avila http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:56:40 -0500 From: Dan <autarch at vippn.com> Subject: (urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050616090253.04231eb0 at pop.vippn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:10 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote: arguably the first cyberpunk novel, do androids dream of electric sheep is a detective story and crime noire, and the ridley scott's film blade runner had such an effect on japan that a subgenre of scifi anime has always been cyberpunk whether as adventure or mystery. I think the art direction of David Snyder and his dark depiction of the future probably had more of an impact on anime than did Scott's ponderous hollywoodization of DADoES. Certainly GitS was influenced by Blade Runner's theme. I'm looking forward to watching Stand Alone Complex, as soon as AS will reair the first four episodes so I can see it in order. i am afraid my memory is going bad but someone just said that after reading (there are doors? which i have not read) that it was the best philip k. dick book not written by philip k. dick. that is the point i am trying to make exactly. if cyberpunk isn't looking at wolfe (and it might be though i have no evidence or thought about it much) it is looking to dick and i have not read enough dick, but i think, in his position, wolfe cannot looking at dick. Not sure I understand, but I recall reading in one of the interviews with Gene that he had read (and I believe liked) PKD. In fact, I'm currently reading Free Live Free and there also seems to be somewhat of a PKD flavor, but not as obvious as in There are Doors. in any case, wolfe is to some degree a cyberpunk author or cyberpunk is, if any genre can cliam to be, in the same tradition as wolfe. EOT; I agree to the degree that it's a testament to Wolfe's ability to stretch his craft into other themes and genres. But I wouldn't pigeonhole him as a cyberpunk author or see how cyberpunk could claim him as one of their own. What little I recall of a class on the advent of cyberpunk left the impression that every so often there's some type of backlash in the literary world that spawns anew, reinvents or reintroduces a genre. The instructors maintained that cyberpunk was one of these waves that actually had it's roots in SF and fantasy shorts that appeared in '70's glossies. I think that some of Wolfe's short stories may have a CP bent, such as The Other Dead Man or the HORARS of War but I'm not sure I would include them in a cyberpunk anthology unless it's titled The Tertiary Roots of Cyberpunk: The stories that influenced the well-read authors who influenced the authors that rode the crest of the Cyberpunk wave. Dan ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:55:42 +0000 From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: (urth) 5HC : Unbound Simulator To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <BAY102-F168EC28240CBA2D9DFA5886F50 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Given infinite processing capacity could a machine simulate humanity? It has been observed elsewhere thet M. Million seems the most humane member of the household... Most sentimental, perhaps, although it's hard to get a handle on Five's sentimentality with the way he writes; such things may be systematically omitted, from embarrassment or whatever reason. It certainly does seem that Five has passions under the surface of what he writes, and he is certainly capable of profound hatred. With regard to simulating humanity, I would suggest that the question is purely grammatical. Can you pretend to think? Well, it would seem like if you really went through the motions you would be thinking, not just pretending. "But couldn't I do everything else I normally do when thinking, but not think?" -- well, you could perhaps scrunch up your eyes and make a face without thinking (much), such that it would fool an outside observer. But is scrunching up your eyes and making a face necessary to thinking at all - I mean, you are not pretending to think, you are just making faces, and making faces has nothing to do with thinking. Similarly "humanity" - I assume we're not talking about the trivial biological sense of the term - is not something that can be simulated. If we grammatically allow that machine is the kind of thing which can simulate humanity, then if it behaves in such and such a way it is not simulating humanity, it is being human. And on the other hand if you assume that a machine is not the kind of thing which can do that, then its behaving in such and such a way is not simulating humanity or being human, it is simply a meaningless conjunction of circumstances. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:01:44 -0400 From: Adrian Robert <arobert at cogsci.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: (urth) Re: "There Are Doors" To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <B2D8E14E-DE90-11D9-A520-000A956A659C at cogsci.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Jun 16, 2005, at 9:58 AM, Dan wrote:

On Jun 2, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Dan wrote:

Thanks Adrian. Though Kafka's been highly recommended before, I just never got around to reading him. The new translation sounds interesting. New translation, hmm.. I just read part of it at Amazon: Old (Willa and Edwin Muir) ---- It was late in the evening when K. arrived. The village was deep in snow. The Castle hill was hidden, veiled in mist and darkness, nor was there even a glimmer of light to show that a castle was there. On the wooden bridge leading from the main road to the village, K. stood for a long time gazing into the illusory emptiness above him. New (Mark Harman) ---- It was late evening when K. arrived. The village lay under deep snow. There was no sign of the Castle hill, fog and darkness surrounded it, not even the faintest gleam of light suggested the large Castle. K. stood for a long time on the wooden bridge that leads from the main road to the village, gazing upward into the seeming emptiness. I can't say I much care for the new one myself, but, more pertinently, this sort of evident freedom of the translator to determine the whole tone of the text sometimes discourages one from reading translations at all! But short of learning German, you should definitely read several pages of every translation you can find and pick the one that suits yourself, regardless of which is supposedly "better" according to current fashion or anyone's opinion. (Especially when that opinion as in lauding the new translation speaks of preserving the "author's intentions", a ludicrous ideal, when the author was still editing (and writing!) the works when he died, and indeed deemed them so unfinished and unworthy as to request the manuscripts all be burned immediately.) Anyway, your message talked me into scrounging up some Philip K. Dick (additional to DADOES), which at least won't have these problems.. Adrian ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:08:15 +0200 From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net> Subject: (urth) Is this a BotNS illustration? To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050616200223.03762390 at pop.gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3?picName=The+Claw+of+the+Conciliator&picImage=pic16.JPG What do you think? It doesn't really look like anything I remember from the book... but why else call the picture 'The Claw of the Conciliator'? The artist is Yoshitaka Amano, a renowned fantasy illustrator who collaborated with Neil Gaiman on 'Sandman: The Dream Hunters'. He seems to like doing random illustrations for fantasy stuff - there's some Elric illustrations on that website, too. Basically, high-calibre fan art. g Anyway... if that is supposed to be a Wolfe illustration, then what do you suppose it's meant to be? Is this Severian? (Surely not!) Hm. Hmpf --- "I don't get out much, so I read." Pilot, Farscape ------------------------------