Index · 7 messages · 5 voices · 16 Dec – 17 Dec 2010

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Lee Berman16 Dec 2010, 17:46as archived

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↰ answers Gerry Quinn · by quotation

3 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

As mentioned elsewhere, to describe Jesus as "enlightened and possessed by the Outsider" would be hideously incorrect theology. However, such a description might well address the problem of His having an analogue in the Briahtic universe.

But is it not exactly the interpretation that would spring to the mind of an augur in Silk's hideously incorrect religion?

Dan'l- Yes, I believe that is correct.

It could be. I can see the validity of this possible view. For me, the problem becomes that when Silk was, in that split-second, enlightened by The Outsider, we now have to accept that the enlightenment was not Universal Truth but instead a culturally-relative, ethnically corrupted version of the Truth so that Silk could understand it. It could be argued that Silk received Universal Truth but he has to translate it into culturally relevant forms when he preaches so that the locals can understand it. This doesn't seem quite so bad but it still suggests the approval of a corrupted message. We might wonder- how DOES Gene Wolfe feel about culturally adapted versions of Christianity? Is it okay to throw in a Christmas tree and Santa for the Germanics? Mother Mary worship for the Latin American people. Witchcraft and call and response singing for the Africans? He might approve. I dunno. But I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any appearances in the Sun series. I'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a crucifix, not a "rood"=rod) or fewer monsters and demons. That's really the crux (heh) of it, for me. The Sun series is all about what the universe would be like with no Christ. Answer- We'd really have pagan gods ruling us, vampires among us, foul, predatory monsters in the oceans, ghouls and human sacrifice and a lot of other nasty stuff that we Earthlings, blessedly, (mostly) only have in legends.

David Stockhoff16 Dec 2010, 17:57as archived

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

Possibly. That seems a bit literal to me. One could go further and speculate that such a universe is the one we would experience, because we would create it ... because that is what we perceive, being creatures of superstition with no higher wisdom to guide us. At best, we'd be dupes in someone else's idea of progress, even if it helps us in the long run.

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On 12/16/2010 12:46 PM, Lee Berman wrote: That's really the crux (heh) of it, for me. The Sun series is all about what the universe would be like with no Christ. Answer- We'd really have pagan gods ruling us, vampires among us, foul, predatory monsters in the oceans, ghouls and human sacrifice and a lot of other nasty stuff that we Earthlings, blessedly, (mostly) only have in legends.

Matthew Weber16 Dec 2010, 18:03as archived

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

3 quoted lines

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote: But I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any appearances in the Sun series. I'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a crucifix, not a "rood"=rod) or fewer monsters and demons.

I would think that "rood" is used primarily to refer to a cross, or the Cross. The sense in which it means "rod" or "staff" is even more obscure than the Christian one. I have to confess that the assumption I sometimes see at work here, that Wolfe always takes the longest way possible around everything, baffles and bemuses me. Using the word "rood" to signify a cross or crucifix is a way of distancing the phenomenon; if he merely said "cross" or "crucifix" it would seem very cozily Christian to us. But the BotNS is set in a far future in which Christianity may be only a distant, mythic memory--or perhaps it's a distant past in which Christianity has not yet appeared. So calling it a rood rather than a crucifix or cross renders it intelligible and retains a slight whiff of Christianity (as a survival of long ago?) without suggesting that the denizens of Urth practice what we understand to be the Christian faith.

Matt + Let each man pass his days in that wherein his skill is greatest. Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 46

David Stockhoff16 Dec 2010, 18:09as archived

↳ in reply to Matthew Weber

Just like the Sign of Addition. Is it a past survival or a future one? I was going to mention to Lee the other day that his theory reminded me of Childhood's End, where an advanced race of benign red devils comes to rule us and prepare us for some Enlightenment that always struck me as on the level of meeting God.

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On 12/16/2010 1:03 PM, Matthew Weber wrote: On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com <mailto:severiansola at hotmail.com>> wrote: But I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any appearances in the Sun series. I'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a crucifix, not a "rood"=rod) or fewer monsters and demons. I would think that "rood" is used primarily to refer to a cross, or the Cross. The sense in which it means "rod" or "staff" is even more obscure than the Christian one. I have to confess that the assumption I sometimes see at work here, that Wolfe always takes the longest way possible around everything, baffles and bemuses me. Using the word "rood" to signify a cross or crucifix is a way of distancing the phenomenon; if he merely said "cross" or "crucifix" it would seem very cozily Christian to us. But the BotNS is set in a far future in which Christianity may be only a distant, mythic memory--or perhaps it's a distant past in which Christianity has not yet appeared. So calling it a rood rather than a crucifix or cross renders it intelligible and retains a slight whiff of Christianity (as a survival of long ago?) without suggesting that the denizens of Urth practice what we understand to be the Christian faith. -- Matt + Let each man pass his days in that wherein his skill is greatest. Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 46

Son of Witz16 Dec 2010, 18:53as archived

↳ in reply to Matthew Weber

12 quoted lines

On Dec 16, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com> wrote: On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: But I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any appearances in the Sun series. I'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a crucifix, not a "rood"=rod) or fewer monsters and demons. I would think that "rood" is used primarily to refer to a cross, or the Cross. The sense in which it means "rod" or "staff" is even more obscure than the Christian one. I have to confess that the assumption I sometimes see at work here, that Wolfe always takes the longest way possible around everything, baffles and bemuses me. Using the word "rood" to signify a cross or crucifix is a way of distancing the phenomenon; if he merely said "cross" or "crucifix" it would seem very cozily Christian to us. But the BotNS is set in a far future in which Christianity may be only a distant, mythic memory--or perhaps it's a distant past in which Christianity has not yet appeared. So calling it a rood rather than a crucifix or cross renders it intelligible and retains a slight whiff of Christianity (as a survival of long ago?) without suggesting that the denizens of Urth practice what we understand to be the Christian faith. -- Matt +

Thanks for that. I completely agree about the distance obscuration. I think Wolfe is tricksy, but I think people mistrust him too much.

Jeff Wilson17 Dec 2010, 01:15as archived

↳ in reply to David Stockhoff

4 quoted lines

On 12/16/2010 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Just like the Sign of Addition. Is it a past survival or a future one? I was going to mention to Lee the other day that his theory reminded me of Childhood's End, where an advanced race of benign red devils comes to rule us and prepare us for some Enlightenment that always struck me as on the level of meeting God.

The black devils sorta kinda parallel the Yesodis but the resemblance is probably due to the plots' descent from Teilhard de Chardin and being compressed to near-novel length.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

David Stockhoff17 Dec 2010, 01:32as archived

↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson

Jeff, you made me google him. Thanks. Some crazy stuff here: Having reached the limit of its organized complexity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity#Disorganized_complexity_vs._organized_complexity>, the collective Christ mankind?will make a leap to a higher degree of singularity by dying and delegating all of its universe-orchestrating power to the single survivor, who will be automatically promoted to the rank of Christ personal .....

6 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

On 12/16/2010 8:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 12/16/2010 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

The black devils sorta kinda parallel the Yesodis but the resemblance is probably due to the plots' descent from Teilhard de Chardin and being compressed to near-novel length.

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