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Index · 11 messages · 5 voices · 16 Jan – 17 Jan 2011

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Andrew Mason16 Jan 2011, 20:21as archived
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↰ answers Jeff Wilson · by quotation
2 quoted lines
Jeff Wilson wrote: Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?
He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that. I think he does sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so it may be that the refusal was an act. But as Lee pointed out, the kahibit might do for 'servant of the throne' as well.
2 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.)
Yea and no; "cacogen" is Urthspeak for Bug Eyed Monster, and hierodules wear scary monster masks when they visit Urth undercover. Apheta, being a hierarch, doesn't need a disguise because she appears outwardly human and if she reveals herself to be an exalted being, well, "divine messenger" is right up there just under the Autarch.
'Cacogen' is used at times for all aliens, incuding Inire and the Cumaean, who don't disguise themselves as monsters. Certainly the name reflects a sense that aliens are monstrous, but it doesn't seem to be limited to those who wear monster masks.
David Duffy16 Jan 2011, 22:31as archived
↳ in reply to Andrew Mason
2 quoted lines
On Sun, 16 Jan 2011, Andrew Mason wrote: 'Cacogen' is used at times for all aliens, incuding Inire and the Cumaean, who don't disguise themselves as monsters. Certainly the name reflects a sense that aliens are monstrous, but it doesn't seem to be limited to those who wear monster masks.
Maybe they smile a lot...
Jeff Wilson16 Jan 2011, 22:51as archived
↳ in reply to Andrew Mason
5 quoted lines · 1–4 deep
On 1/16/2011 2:21 PM, Andrew Mason wrote: Jeff Wilson wrote:
Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.)
Yea and no; "cacogen" is Urthspeak for Bug Eyed Monster, and hierodules wear scary monster masks when they visit Urth undercover. Apheta, being a hierarch, doesn't need a disguise because she appears outwardly human and if she reveals herself to be an exalted being, well, "divine messenger" is right up there just under the Autarch.
'Cacogen' is used at times for all aliens, incuding Inire and the Cumaean, who don't disguise themselves as monsters. Certainly the name reflects a sense that aliens are monstrous, but it doesn't seem to be limited to those who wear monster masks.
Inire and the Cumaean are not widely known to be nonhuman, outside their circle of acquaintances. "'Just a little man he is, with a wry neck and bow legs.'" This is possible in part because of the masquerade their "cousins" maintain.
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
Jerry Friedman17 Jan 2011, 01:26as archived
↳ in reply to Andrew Mason
4 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Jeff Wilson wrote:
Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?
He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that.
He got her to run away, pulled her down by her ankle, and tore her shift off. I think they had sex after that.
2 quoted lines
I think he does sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so it may be that the refusal was an act.
... Maybe to point out, as he says, that she has no power over him. Jerry Friedman
Jeff Wilson17 Jan 2011, 02:29as archived
↳ in reply to Jerry Friedman
11 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
On 1/16/2011 7:26 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: From: Andrew Mason<andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Jeff Wilson wrote:
Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?
He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that.
He got her to run away, pulled her down by her ankle, and tore her shift off. I think they had sex after that.
I think he does sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so it may be that the refusal was an act.
... Maybe to point out, as he says, that she has no power over him.
this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'" Presumably the only woman is Agia, and getting it on with Daria would rather undermine the impression he had been laboring to make on her.
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
Adam Thornton17 Jan 2011, 04:11as archived
↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson
2 quoted lines
On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'"
Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something different than we all think it does. Adam
Jeff Wilson17 Jan 2011, 04:36as archived
↳ in reply to Adam Thornton
4 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'"
Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something different than we all think it does.
Bow-chicka-bow-wow! David Gerrold did it first...and nth.
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
Jerry Friedman17 Jan 2011, 05:57as archived
↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson
8 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:
On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'"
Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something different than we all think it does.
Bow-chicka-bow-wow! David Gerrold did it first...and nth.
Heinlein did it earlier. Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman17 Jan 2011, 06:11as archived
↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson
13 quoted lines · 1–4 deep
From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
On 1/16/2011 7:26 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
From: Andrew Mason<andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Jeff Wilson wrote:
Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?
He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that.
He got her to run away, pulled her down by her ankle, and tore her shift off. I think they had sex after that.
I think he does sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so it may be that the refusal was an act.
... Maybe to point out, as he says, that she has no power over him.
this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'"
If that means he's not willing to have sex with any woman but one, it started after the encounter with Pia, and I remember no trace of this change in him. I'm sure I've read that many times as "There is only one living woman I desire, and I fear no man but myself." Yet my edition has it the way you quoted it. Just my unconscious editor?
1 quoted line
Presumably the only woman is Agia,
My first guess would have been Dorcas, and my second, Valeria.
2 quoted lines
and getting it on with Daria would rather undermine the impression he had been laboring to make on her.
Severian's behavior in this whole scene is rude, crude, and socially unacceptable (as we said in junior high). Is your idea that he strips her naked to underline the point that even then he doesn't want to have sex with her? If he does reject her, that's pretty serious humiliation, and I'm surprised she's so friendly with him before the battle (Ch. XXI). But if he doesn't reject her, maybe she can write his actions off as the odd behavior of johns. I think the point he's making is that she has no power over him, so their sex is going to be on his terms. Jerry Friedman
Jeff Wilson17 Jan 2011, 06:23as archived
↳ in reply to Jerry Friedman
10 quoted lines · 1–4 deep
On 1/16/2011 11:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: From: Jeff Wilson<jwilson at io.com>
On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:
On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'"
Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something different than we all think it does.
Bow-chicka-bow-wow! David Gerrold did it first...and nth.
Heinlein did it earlier.
Not exactly; Jane was straight in both self-identified sexes. Dan swung both ways.
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
Jerry Friedman17 Jan 2011, 06:29as archived
↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson
13 quoted lines · 1–5 deep
From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
On 1/16/2011 11:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
From: Jeff Wilson<jwilson at io.com>
On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:
On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'"
Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something different than we all think it does.
Bow-chicka-bow-wow! David Gerrold did it first...and nth.
Heinlein did it earlier.
Not exactly; Jane was straight in both self-identified sexes. Dan swung both ways.
Okay, I guess it depends on what "it" means. Jerry Friedman

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