Index · 4 messages · 4 voices · 16 Dec – 17 Dec 2011

Change of Pace / Peace

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Antonin Scriabin16 Dec 2011, 21:12as archived

I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO miniseries, Carnivale. Basically, it was a pseudo-end times supernatural mystery / thriller set during the Great Depression (dust-bowl Midwest), alternating between the stories of a young "Avatar" of good (a man traveling with a circus / carnival) and an "Avatar" of evil, a preacher in (I think) California who gains a large following. Anyways, I noticed some parallels between it and Peace, during the portion in which a character in the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone. The young man goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds a mother-daughter "burlesque dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a character named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in the TV show). "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the similarity is coincidental! The carnival scenes in Peace also take place in a Depression area Midwest town. I seem to remember a few other interesting similarities between Peace (which was written 28 years earlier) and Carnivale that I will try and remember. Anyone notice this / know if the HBO writers were fans of or influenced by Wolfe's work?

Larry Miller16 Dec 2011, 22:11as archived

↳ in reply to Antonin Scriabin

The shows creator was Daniel Knauf who also writes comic books (or did) and I wouldnt be surprised if he knew about Wolfes work. Neil Gaiman is always dropping Wolfes name in interviews. BTW Ronald Moore who developed the Battlestar Galactica remake also wrote for Carnivale and has said he was an avid SF reader as a teen. The only literary influences I know that Knauf mentioned myself is Something Wicked This Way Comes and the Grapes of Wrath. If your interested in further elaboration of Carnivales mythology search around online for the "Pitch Document" which is a series bible of sorts. Do you recall the episode where Ben Hawkins is sent to clean out the baggage trailer? Briefly shown on camera is a fetus in a liquid filled jar that opens its eyes. That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be a nod to Wolfes work.

2 quoted lines

On 12/16/11, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote: I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO miniseries, Carnivale. Basically, it was a pseudo-end times supernatural mystery / thriller set during the Great Depression (dust-bowl Midwest), alternating between the stories of a young "Avatar" of good (a man traveling with a circus / carnival) and an "Avatar" of evil, a preacher in (I think) California who gains a large following. Anyways, I noticed some parallels between it and Peace, during the portion in which a character in the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone. The young man goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds a mother-daughter "burlesque dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a character named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in the TV show). "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the similarity is coincidental! The carnival scenes in Peace also take place in a Depression area Midwest town. I seem to remember a few other interesting similarities between Peace (which was written 28 years earlier) and Carnivale that I will try and remember. Anyone notice this / know if the HBO writers were fans of or influenced by Wolfe's work?

David Duffy16 Dec 2011, 22:27as archived

↳ in reply to Antonin Scriabin

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On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Antonin Scriabin wrote: I don't know if many of you watched the short-lived but well-executed HBO miniseries, Carnivale.

Anyways, I noticed some parallels between it and Peace, during the portion in which a character in the book (I can't remember if it is the narrator himself or a story-within-a-story) apprentices with the man turning to stone. The young man goes, for some reason, to visit a neighboring carnival, where he finds a mother-daughter "burlesque dancer" team (just like in the TV show) and a character named Scudder (the last name of the Avatar of good's father in the TV show). "Scudder" is far from a common name; I can't think the similarity is coincidental!

I didn't watch it (it looked like too much work ;)), but the Wikipedia article is fairly extensive. It suggests, for example, that the cootch family came into the story following research. I would have thought Bradbury's Something Wicked This Way Comes, Dr Lao, even The Dreaming Jewels might be other literary precedents. And Nehemiah Scudder appears in Heinlein's If This Goes On "The First Prophet was Nehemiah Scudder, a backwoods preacher turned President (elected in 2012)" ..that was my immediate thought when you mentioned the name Scudder. Cheers, David Duffy.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes17 Dec 2011, 00:48as archived

↳ in reply to Larry Miller

3 quoted lines

Larry Miller wrote: Do you recall the episode where Ben Hawkins is sent to clean out the baggage trailer? Briefly shown on camera is a fetus in a liquid filled jar that opens its eyes. ?That always reminded me of the mandragora. That may also be a nod to Wolfes work.

Possible, but it's more likely to be a nod to Ray Bradbury's "The Jar," which was made into an astonishing Alfred Hitchcock episode.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

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