This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
LH
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On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Greg Bates <gregory.a.bates at gmail.com> wrote: Well, at least it beat the EU Star Wars tripe. By one spot. :-(
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Antonin Scriabin
<kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
I agree about the gulags!
Anyways, this list is especially embarrassing since NPR listeners have a (vague) reputation for being intellectuals, and a cut above the typical reader. Guess not. I see a lot of stuff on the list that I was really into when I was 8-10 (Terry Brooks, David Eddings, etc.), then quickly outgrew when I realized that there was vastly superior science fiction and fantasy out there. I think a lot of the voting that went into this list was fueled by the nostalgia of people who never "grew-up" out of the formative junk that a lot of us cut our sci-fi teeth on as kids.
17 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote: This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
LH
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Greg Bates <gregory.a.bates at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, at least it beat the EU Star Wars tripe. By one spot. :-(
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Antonin Scriabin
<kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will check out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here.
_______________________________________________
On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:
This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
But who will spin the looms in the interim?
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at clueland.com> wrote: On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:
This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
But who will spin the looms in the interim?
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
_______________________________________________
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at clueland.com> wrote: On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:
This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
But who will spin the looms in the interim?
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
______________________________**_________________
All civilization is a popularity contest. I just wish smart things were more popular than pablum.
Sent from my iPhone
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On Aug 11, 2011, at 10:40 AM, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com> wrote: People, it's just a popularity contest...
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at clueland.com> wrote:
On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:
This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
But who will spin the looms in the interim?
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
_______________________________________________
On 8/11/2011 10:36 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:
This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
But who will spin the looms in the interim?
or er write the new books I guess. sorry, still decompressing from a 5 week lit crit bootcamp
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com
4 quoted lines
wrote:
I agree about the gulags!
Anyways, this list is especially embarrassing since NPR listeners have a (vague) reputation for being intellectuals, and a cut above the typical reader. Guess not.
As I recall, the thriller list from last year had writers like Stieg Larsson and Dan Brown in or very near the top spots, when really they shouldn't be within a thousand books of the top of the list.
The top ten-odd choices on the sf list aren't all fantastic (I wouldn't put Hitchhiker's, Ender's Game, or GRRM there) and they reflect an unfamiliarity with the field at large, but they're mostly good books. If nothing else, I think the right book came in at number one.
-Matt
Also, NPR only seems more intellectual because its competition is pop music and "morning shows" run by two aging burnouts named Jack Dingo and Toadstool.
Sent from my iPhone
22 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
On Aug 11, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote: I agree about the gulags!
Anyways, this list is especially embarrassing since NPR listeners have a (vague) reputation for being intellectuals, and a cut above the typical reader. Guess not. I see a lot of stuff on the list that I was really into when I was 8-10 (Terry Brooks, David Eddings, etc.), then quickly outgrew when I realized that there was vastly superior science fiction and fantasy out there. I think a lot of the voting that went into this list was fueled by the nostalgia of people who never "grew-up" out of the formative junk that a lot of us cut our sci-fi teeth on as kids.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote: This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
LH
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Greg Bates <gregory.a.bates at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, at least it beat the EU Star Wars tripe. By one spot. :-(
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Antonin Scriabin
<kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm surprised how much of this I've read. I didn't think I've read that much SF.
So, for whatever reason I've been tempted by those Elric books recently, even though they look like trash.
Are they fun trash? Are they better than that Sword of Truth trash that was a bit of fun for a very short while?
They were apparently a big influence on a writer I've begun collaborating with on a graphic novel. I feel like I should know the stuff, maybe if only to know if he's ripping something off from Elric, hehehe.
Son of Witz
The Elric books (ANY Moorcock, for that matter) is in a different time zone than Goodkind's trash.
Moorcock was a very subversive counterculture figure in the 60s and 70s and his books reflect it. Elric was written as the Anti-Conan, a sickly intellectual who concerns himself too much with ethics and turns to violence and demonology only as a last resort. But they are adventure tales in the grand S&S fashion. Still, they defined the dark heroic fantasy genre.
I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually.
Sent from my iPhone
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On Aug 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
I'm surprised how much of this I've read. I didn't think I've read that much SF.
So, for whatever reason I've been tempted by those Elric books recently, even though they look like trash.
Are they fun trash? Are they better than that Sword of Truth trash that was a bit of fun for a very short while?
They were apparently a big influence on a writer I've begun collaborating with on a graphic novel. I feel like I should know the stuff, maybe if only to know if he's ripping something off from Elric, hehehe.
Son of Witz
Son of Witz wrote:
I'm surprised how much of this I've read.
I on the other hand was not surprised to learn that I'd read the overwhelming majority of these -- 76 of 100, and that's not counting a few that I started and gave up on.
Isn't this the punishment Thecla had to endure until her execution?
J.
6 quoted lines
On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:
This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote: The Elric books (ANY Moorcock, for that matter) is in a different time zone than Goodkind's trash.
Well, almost every Moorcock -- there was his ERB ripoff written purely for money.
1 quoted line
I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually.
I can't go quite that far.
It helps to understand that there appear to be two writers living in Michael Moorcock's head. One writes quick-and-dirty swords'n'sorcery like the majority of the EC books. These are not bad books by any means, but they don't go an inch beneath the surface. These would include -- just off the top of my head -- the Corum books, the Hawkmoon books, and the books simply labelled "eternal champion."
Then there's the Moorcock who writes elegant "comedies" like GLORIANA, the Pyat quartet, and "the Dancers at the End of Time." These are remarkably good books, full of satire and wit. And there are quite a few of them -- I want to mention BEHOLD THE MAN, and THE WARHOUND AND THE WORLD'S PAIN, and the Oswald Bastable books (which are steampunk), and BREAKFAST IN THE RUINS, and and and...
But, somewhere in the middle of these, are Elric and Jerry Cornelius ... oh my. Elric is a witty swords'n'sorcery series, almost a parody of s&s, but never failing to take its matter seriously in context. And Jerry Cornelius... well, some days I think Cornelius is Moorcock's crowning achievement; other days I think it's a vast hoax. Either way, I wouldn't be without the ten or so books that constitute the greater Cornelius Chronicles. Amazing stuff.
To make things more confusing, Elric interacts with characters from both the "lower" tier and the "upper" tier (appearing now with Corum and Hawkmoon, and then in the End of Time...), and both of them (as well as a few characters in the "upper" tier) are aspects of that damned Eternal Champion.
On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com (mailto:lhaygood at gmail.com)> wrote:
The Elric books (ANY Moorcock, for that matter) is in a different time zone than Goodkind's trash.
Well, almost every Moorcock -- there was his ERB ripoff written purely for money.
I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually.
I can't go quite that far.
It helps to understand that there appear to be two writers living in Michael Moorcock's head. One writes quick-and-dirty swords'n'sorcery like the majority of the EC books. These are not bad books by any means, but they don't go an inch beneath the surface. These would include -- just off the top of my head -- the Corum books, the Hawkmoon books, and the books simply labelled "eternal champion."
Then there's the Moorcock who writes elegant "comedies" like GLORIANA, the Pyat quartet, and "the Dancers at the End of Time." These are remarkably good books, full of satire and wit. And there are quite a few of them -- I want to mention BEHOLD THE MAN, and THE WARHOUND AND THE WORLD'S PAIN, and the Oswald Bastable books (which are steampunk), and BREAKFAST IN THE RUINS, and and and...
But, somewhere in the middle of these, are Elric and Jerry Cornelius ... oh my. Elric is a witty swords'n'sorcery series, almost a parody of s&s, but never failing to take its matter seriously in context. And Jerry Cornelius... well, some days I think Cornelius is Moorcock's crowning achievement; other days I think it's a vast hoax. Either way, I wouldn't be without the ten or so books that constitute the greater Cornelius Chronicles. Amazing stuff.
To make things more confusing, Elric interacts with characters from both the "lower" tier and the "upper" tier (appearing now with Corum and Hawkmoon, and then in the End of Time...), and both of them (as well as a few characters in the "upper" tier) are aspects of that damned Eternal Champion.
--
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Thanks.
I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D
I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet.
~witz
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Son of Witz
<sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
Thanks.
I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D
I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet.
If they're the ones published in the '80s by Pacific/First Comics, they're very true to the stories.
On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Son of Witz
<sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org (mailto:sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org)> wrote:
Thanks.
I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D
I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet.
If they're the ones published in the '80s by Pacific/First Comics, they're very true to the stories.
--
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
I don't know the date but they have digital coloring, so they're not that old. They're written by Moorcock though. Walter Simonson art. They look promising enough.
Hunh. Not the ones I'm familiar with. Simonson art, eh...
18 quoted lines
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Son of Witz
<sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Son of Witz
<sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
Thanks.
I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D
I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet.
If they're the ones published in the '80s by Pacific/First Comics, they're very true to the stories.
--
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
I don't know the date but they have digital coloring, so they're not that old. They're written by Moorcock though. Walter Simonson art. ?They look promising enough.
_______________________________________________
H'mmm. I've liked his art since his run on "Thor." Granted, he's not in my top ten or anything but his art definitely gets the job done.
10 quoted lines
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Son of Witz
<sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
Hunh. Not the ones I'm familiar with. Simonson art, eh...
yeah. I don't love his art, but it's solid enough.
_______________________________________________
From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: (urth) NPR Results
This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy.
I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips?
...
The overseers being Seekers of Taste and Penitence?
Jerry Friedman
Moorcock was a very subversive counterculture figure in the 60s and 70s
and his books reflect it. Elric was written as the Anti-Conan, a sickly intellectual who concerns himself too much with ethics and turns to violence and demonology only as a last resort.
The Hamlet of Swords and Sorcery?
1 quoted line
I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually.
I have maybe a blind spot for Moorcock. The Jerry Cornelius and related stuff turned me off, and much of the rest seemed slight. Probably I should take another look.
I actually liked his non-SF effort, Mother London.
- Gerry Quinn
That is very fun! I might bump Home Fires up a notch or two on my Wolfe-to-read list.
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On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 5:02 AM, Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com> wrote:
**
----- Original Message -----
From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Moorcock was a very subversive counterculture figure in the 60s and 70s and his books reflect it. Elric was written as the Anti-Conan, a sickly intellectual who concerns himself too much with ethics and turns to violence and demonology only as a last resort.
The Hamlet of Swords and Sorcery?
I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually.
I have maybe a blind spot for Moorcock. The Jerry Cornelius and related stuff turned me off, and much of the rest seemed slight. Probably I should take another look.
I actually liked his non-SF effort, Mother London.
- Gerry Quinn
_______________________________________________
Urth Net