Poor Moly

I don't see why you're hung up on the one-hand-or-two angle. Marble took both of Rose's hands, but even one hand that looks like an old woman's hand suffices to establish that it did not originally come from a dismantled chem maid. After the possession of Marble/Rose by Echidna was over, while the Rose personality was telling Silk about the birth of Blood, she took hold of one of Silk's hands: "Her hand--he recognized it now as Maytera Rose's--found his." (LS3: 4) He knew it was Rose's because it looked like an old woman's hand. The hand Blood cut off is such a hand. From the talus factory chapter of LS4, page 138: "Maytera Marble had passed her basket to Swallow; he took off the white towel that had covered her now-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an elderly woman."

The onus isn't on me--it's your theory that the parts came from a dismantled chem. In any event, I've already provided an answer in an earlier post. Tarsier, for one, had the know-how, as evidenced by the highly customized, glow-in-the-dark body he provided for Lemur. The arms of that body required a much higher degree of technical knowledge to build than a cosmetic veneer on a prosthetic hand. Further, the list of characters in LAKE says of Tarsier that he was "expert on architecture and engineering". I doubt that he was unique.

Moly is your problem, not mine. She doesn't appear in the books. I wouldn't say that Marble was impersonating Moly; she was just lying. Marble's meeting with Hammerstone is not related in the books. I don't know what she told him, but her name was never Molybdenum; it was Magnesia before she became a sibyl, just as she told Mint. (LS4, 359)

The fact remains that, like it or not, that's the way the text has it.

You were wrong, as I've shown. That's the way they looked, period. While I'm at it, I may as well shoot some more holes in your theory. You maintain, on your Molybdenum web page, that "old worn-out" Marble was made a teacher, while (hypothetical, to me) Moly, "whose parts were still in good condition", was dismantled to provide parts for Betel. I must point out that, soldier or servant, all the chems are the same age. If, as you maintain, "Moly" was at Sun Street from Day One, and if, as the text states, the maid had no room at the cenoby because chems didn't need one, because a chem maid worked 24/7, then why should one maid be in much better condition than another? Why should a cenoby built for six sibyls even need two maids, when they work 24/7? And that business about Betel getting all those prosthetics: that's not in the text, not even the need for them. You go further and claim that Rose inherited those prosthetics from Betel. That must have made quite a sight. Betel was "fat", whereas Rose was "such a small woman". (LS3: 4) As you postulate young Pike as Blood's father, then all this unholy dismantling took place on his watch. And to think, the Outsider thought so well of him as to grant him enlightenment. Three sibyls--Betel, Rose, and Marble--and an augur all kept their mouths shut about the murder/martyrdom of a chem maid. Or are you going to tell me that Pike didn't notice that a maid was missing from the complex for forty-fifty years? Or that he was a fellow conspirator? You also state on your page that Hammerstone, after his 74-year 'sleep', went to Sun Street looking for his lost love, Moly. Pure fabrication, directly contradicted by the text: "'I had to go on reserve. I went to sleep, and when I woke up I wasn't stationed in the city any more. Maybe I should've gone looking for Moly.' He shrugged. 'Only I figured by then she'd found somebody else. Just about all of them had.'" (LS3: 3) -Roy

Some nice catches in your last post. Thanks. But in your verbose post, somehow you never addressed the fact that Silk says bio prosthetic technology was not available to Rose and Marble (LS3:1). I realize there is a reason you missed it. <g> Her "LIE" about being at the Sun St. cenoby since before humans came to Viron was made in front of Hammerstone and Hammerstone would have known if it weren't true of Moly. That's simply beyond debate. I maintain, I haven't really changed on this, that the "old hands" you mention are an intriguing mystery, but they affect not at all the two points above. Again, thanks for the refinements on my Molybdenum story. They are greatly appreciated. -- Crush

But in your verbose post, somehow you never addressed the fact that Silk says bio prosthetic technology was not available to Rose and Marble (LS3:1). I realize there is a reason you missed it. <g> Oops! The conversation was in LS2:1.

I didn't miss it. Silk is a 23-year old mama's boy, a year-and-a-half out of the seminary. His ignorance is encyclopedic. At that point in the story he thinks old-time pictures and sounds that once came out of computer terminals are really gods. He doesn't know that the Ayuntamiento is composed of chems, that a lander is a spaceship, that Mainframe is a computer bank, that the Whorl is a mote in a vast universe outside. He knows nothing about women. He was taught at the schola that black mechanics don't exist, along with a lot of other nonsense that he lacks the intellectual wherewithal to question until he has his nose rubbed in it, if then. He doesn't know any better, because he is a product of his nurturing and, to quote Shaw, "thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature". He learns better, eventually. He doesn't know, yet, that the Whorl is a machine that is wearing out rapidly, just like Marble. He thinks the malfunction of the 'seasons' is due to the displeasure of the "gods". Within a week of the opening of the story he learns a great many things that turn the foundations of his worldview upside down. One of the things he learned was that individuals such as Tarsier could, and did, provide customized prosthetics like those demonstrated by Lemur--for a price. Chem servants didn't have the price; they were de facto slaves. If Marble had had the gelt, she could have bought new/refurbished parts. She didn't; she couldn't even pay for a welding job on her severed hand. The same goes for bios. Notice that in the text in question Silk laments the lack of prosthetics for Marble and Rose and "for all the beggars who are blind or crippled". Beggars, Crush, beggars. Just like the legions of poor bios in the quarter who can't afford to be treated by a doctor. The wealthy don't have that problem. If wealthy bios need prosthetics, they can evidently be found. Or do you suppose Silk was just discriminating against the wealthy when he expressed his regrets? I repeat; it was only in the last few decades that prosthetics became scarce. They were not hard to find when Rose got most of hers, 40-50 years ago. In fact, when chems were more common, they had their own "doctors". As Swallow told Silk: "A doctor who specializes in chems should have one [opticsynapter], but I don't know of one here in Viron." (LS4, 139) Chem "doctors" were hard to find because their 'patients' had worn out and 'died'. Cause of death: poverty.

Nonsense. Hammerstone wasn't there when the cenoby was staffed. He was a soldier. Other than for periodic calls to active duty to pull CQ or in time of war, he, like the rest of the soldiers, spent most of his life 'asleep'. Think about it; his courtship of Moly was on-going when he last was ordered to sleep, something over 74 years ago. Viron was stocked with people more than 300 years ago. Given the 7-8 to 1 ratio of male to female chems he claims, do you really think he wasted two centuries or more courting her without popping the question?

Then I can say no more. -Roy

Ok, Roy, I think I got it now. Your contention is that Silk was so clueless that he wasn't aware that prosthetics were available even though there was a sibyl (just across the courtyard) who was about half artificial. Horn was equally clueless. Also, within the same space of time since Kennedy was shot, the craftsmen who used to build bio-prosthetics (specially designed to look old) and chem replacement parts all died out without training any protégés. Finally, Hammerstone was never curious enough to enquire where his fiancé was employed (because if he knew what she was doing at any time he would know if she was not constantly employed at the cenoby). I don't see a way to bridge the gap between us --- which is a shame, because I think the "old hands" references you've pointed out bears investigation, but you and I seem to be the only people interested. -- Crush

Roy C having written:

Ahem ... While I have no idea whether Crush knows this or not, Gene Wolfe holds the same hypothesis. Once upon a time, moments before I first joined this list back in '97, Gene Wolfe answered a passel of questions from this list in a sort of informal email interview. The entire article, "Train from Wolfeland," was posted by Mantis and can be found in the archives at http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml -- however the relevant question and answer are quite short:

As for the Outisder thinking "well" of Pike, well, if we=20 identify the Outsider as the God worshipped by Christians, then He has a quite uncanny fondness for repentant sinners...

Thank you for reminding me about that. Some of those questions and answers might stomp on a few of the currently debated theories. Matthew

Blattid said: While I have no idea whether Crush knows this or not, Gene Wolfe holds the same hypothesis... Gene Wolfe answered a passel of questions from this list... Crush writes: This is one of the few moments where Wolfe's answers in those questions confirmed my thoughts rather than left me chagrined. I came to this opinion thusly: 1. To whom else would Rose have sexual access? Not a long list there. 2. Pike (spear) penetrates the Rose (of Sharon) and out comes Blood with Musk(water) That's the way I think, which probably does not inspire others to follow where I lead. -- Crush

One more time. Yes, Silk was clueless. So was Mint (see below). None of them knew, then, that the Ayuntamiento was composed of chems, or of Tarsier's engineering abilities, abilities you persistently ignore. And Rose was "largely" artificial.

I definitely didn't say that, or even suggest it. Quite the contrary; they could be had, for a price. Rose didn't have the price anymore, and servant chems never had it. In addition to the quote I have given in a previous post, which stated that Rose got most/all of her prosthetics at a time when they were not hard to come by, forty years or more ago, here is another, which should settle the matter once and for all. It is on the fourth page of chapter 2 of CALDE, where Mint is giving her opening remarks at Rose's final rites. "I have heard it said that she was the oldest biochemical person in this quarter, and it may well have been true. She belonged to the last of those fortunate generations for which prosthetic devices remained, devices whose principles are lost even to our wisest." (emphasis added) The question of whether or not prosthetics can still be made, or are being made, becomes moot for purposes of this argument. The quote establishes, once again, that Rose got her prosthetics many years ago (two generations), when they were still readily available. That suffices to undermine your theory that they came from Betel, who had taken them from a murdered/martyred chem maid. There was no need for that.

Except for paint, to show rank or which city to whom they belonged, the soldiers all looked exactly alike--they were mass-produced by the millions. There is no reason to believe that it was any different for the servant chems. Molybdenum looked just like Magnesia who looked just like every other femchem. That's what made it so easy for Marble to lie to Hammerstone about being Moly--he couldn't tell the difference. She didn't have a faceplate anymore, anyway. How was he to know one femchem from another, especially since he was so eager to find any femchem available for reproduction. Marble could have been a slut from another city for all he cared. She was female and would have him; that's all that really mattered to him. He wasn't going to look a gift-horse in the mouth. -Roy

Look what you've done! I had resigned myself to let this go, and now you've stirred me up again. I'll take this out of order with part of your theory that drives craziest: Roy said: Except for paint, to show rank or which city to whom they belonged, the soldiers all looked exactly alike--they were mass-produced by the millions. There is no reason to believe that it was any different for the servant chems. Molybdenum looked just like Magnesia who looked just like every other femchem. That's what made it so easy for Marble to lie to Hammerstone about being Moly--he couldn't tell the difference. She didn't have a faceplate anymore, anyway. How was he to know one femchem from another, especially since he was so eager to find any femchem available for reproduction. Marble could have been a slut from another city for all he cared. She was female and would have him; that's all that really mattered to him. He wasn't going to look a gift-horse in the mouth. Crush responds: If one femchem was as good as another to Hammerstone, why did he leave Marble and have the child they were making broken up when she revealed that she was Magnesia? Whether femchems **looked** the same or not (and I contend there **must** have been **some** visual difference so bios could tell who they were dealing with and so they could locate chems who ran away without paying their building indenture), surely Hammerstone knew **something** of the particular femchem he was married/engaged to like say... ***where she worked.**** You aren't denying I presume that Hammerstone and Moly ever met? Roy also said: One more time. Yes, Silk was clueless. So was Mint (see below). None of them knew, then, that the Ayuntamiento was composed of chems, or of Tarsier's engineering abilities, abilities you persistently ignore. "I have heard it said that she was the oldest biochemical person in this quarter, and it may well have been true. She belonged to the last of those fortunate generations for which prosthetic devices remained, devices whose principles are lost even to our wisest." (emphasis added) Crush responds: Either Silk or Mint is less clueless than the other. Mint's statement does not **deny** that the ability to **construct** bio-prosthesis from scratch had been left behind on Urth. Mint clearly **presumes** that Rose's prosthesis, like Xiphias', were salvaged from the Short Sun days. Silk, based on his discussion with Horn in LS2:1, is convinced they are **not**. So I guess it **would** comes down to who you believe, except for the puzzle of the picture and the puzzle of trunk in LS3. Tarsier's engineering skills only support my model rather than yours since he used **chems** to give the Ayuntamiento bodies - which is where I say Rose's prosthesis came from. The Ayuntamiento got the equivalent of a **whole body prosthesis**. There is no textual evidence he had the skill to do any more than alter chem parts for bio use. Roy continues: The question of whether or not prosthetics can still be made, or are being made, becomes moot for purposes of this argument. The quote establishes, once again, that Rose got her prosthetics many years ago (two generations), when they were still readily available. That suffices to undermine your theory that they came from Betel, who had taken them from a murdered/martyred chem maid. There was no need for that. Crush responds: Where are you getting this? We know Rose got her parts about 40 years ago (probably less). Actually you have argued that she got most of her parts more recently. That is NOT **many** years ago by any stretch, nor is it the time period typically associated with "two generations." It **is** a time period in which 250 year-old **salvaged** parts might begin to become scarce for a wide variety of reasons. But it is not enough time for a valuable, lucrative craft to become rare as opposed to common. But as I say, where she got the parts, depends on who you believe. If it were only Mint's testimony we had to deal with we could presume Rose's prosthetics were like Xiphias'. But hers is not the only testimony and we still have the picture and trunk puzzles. The only reason I have for saying Betel got the parts first, is the flags in the **text**. Marble insisted on continuously being shriven of her "lie" to **Betel**. Marble inherits from **Betel** yellowed ivory beads (which I assure you are remarkably like betel nuts in color and shape) on a silver chain (the color of molybdenum). Not from the text, but also significant IMO is that "betel" is a narcotic made from the leaves of the betel vine mixed with mineral lime. I'd love to drop the Betel connection if I could. It would make everything so much more tidy. -- Crush

I probably shouldn't even ask, but **where, in or out of the whorl, did you get such an idea???**

Sure, he met her, but not at Sun Street. Moly didn't work at a cenoby. She was a **housemaid** (LS3: 3), according to Hammerstone, and is so described in the list of characters, as distinguished from a "maid-of-all-work", which is how Marble, nee Magnesia, is described in the list of characters in LS4.

Nope. What I actually said on the subject was: "Rose didn't receive all her prosthetics at the same time, that's all; she would have scared the hell out of that boy if she had. Much of her face was prosthetic, both arms and both legs, her "ears", one eye, and a host of internal organs." And, actually, Rose got her first prosthetics (the hand and arm Blood saw as a boy) **more** than forty years ago. Blood was born when she was 40. She lost touch with him when he was 9. She was about 94 when she died.

Two generations is many years, in terms of a human life span.

You have an analogy. Not even a slingshot, much less a smoking gun. I'll grant you that Wolfe doesn't always leave a smoking gun in plain sight, but I want to at least smell the smoke. -Roy

Roy responded: I probably shouldn't even ask, but **where, in or out of the whorl, did you get such an idea???** Crush answers: LS4:16 Maytera Mint talks to Marble in the ruins of Viron: "Moly! Oh, oh, Moly! May I call you Maytera Marble, just once? I've missed you so!" "Be quick. I'm **about** to become an abandoned woman." "You, Moly?" "Yes, I am." Maytera Marble's voice was firm as granite. "And don't call me Moly, please. It's not my name. It never was. My name's Magnesia. Call me Maggie. Or Marble, if it makes you happy. My husband will --- never mind. Have you met my granddaughter, sib? This is she, but I don't think she'll talk right now. You must excuse her." "Mucor?" Maytera Mint knelt beside the emancipated girl. "Our calde described you to me, and I'm an old friend of your grandmother's." "Wake up." Mucor's pinched face grinned without meaning. "Break it." There was no hint of intelligence in her star. She said nothing further..." [Scleroderma and Shrike approach and talk to Marble and Mint then Marble says] "I am not a sibyl anymore," the slender, shining figure declared. "I **have become** an abandoned woman, as I warned you I would." Call me crazy but Marble must have received some sort of information, between her warning that she would become an abandoned woman and her declaration that she **was** an abandoned woman. Since Marble was **abandoned** then Hammerstone has left her. In terms of logic, that is a "consistency by equivalence". The only information I can see that could have led her to that conclusion is what Mucor said - channeling Hammerstone the same way she spied on Potto in the house of Blood. The only interpretation I can derive from Mucor's words is that he is having another soldier "break" the child they said they would start on immediately (at their wedding). Perhaps you have information that Hammerstone and Marble worked things out, or that illuminates this scenario further... Roy wrote: Sure, [Hammerstone] met [Moly], but not at Sun Street. Moly didn't work at a cenoby. She was a **housemaid** (LS3: 3), according to Hammerstone, and is so described in the list of characters, as distinguished from a "maid-of-all-work", which is how Marble, nee Magnesia, is described in the list of characters in LS4. Crush responds: I suppose its **possible** to play with the text to allow this, but it is hard to square that with Hammerstone's assertion that he lost track of her during his last 74 year nap. That pretty firmly suggests a change in the status of their relationship. If he didn't know where she was during the entire voyage and then he didn't know where she was after, he can hardly say he lost track of her. Perhaps you know the difference between a "housemaid" and a "maid-of-all-work." I don't' really know what it would be, unless one assumes a housemaid dusts and cleans and MOAW also gardens and cooks. Hmm. This would explain why Marble's parts wore out faster than Moly's but it doesn't prevent Moly from working at the cenoby which is, after all, the HOUSE of the sibyls. Roy wrote: Nope. What I actually said on the subject was: "Rose didn't receive all her prosthetics at the same time, that's all; she would have scared the hell out of that boy if she had. Much of her face was prosthetic, both arms and both legs, her "ears", one eye, and a host of internal organs." And, actually, Rose got her first prosthetics (the hand and arm Blood saw as a boy) **more** than forty years ago. Blood was born when she was 40. She lost touch with him when he was 9. She was about 94 when she died. Two generations is many years, in terms of a human life span. Crush responds: Fine. Rose got her first prosthetics less than **50** years. 50 years IS NOT a long time in terms of craftsmanship and knowledge. It is the amount of time most commonly associated with the career of ONE person. 40 years is the amount of time most typically associated with ONE generation. LESS THAN 50 years is not nearly enough time for a valuable, vital craft to become rare when it was common, barring some catastrophe akin to the fall of Rome - and even that took hundreds of years. Imagine losing the technology of the internal combustion engine in the next 50 years (except to a favored few) so that almost everyone has to go back to horses. It's that plausible. Roy wrote: [As for Crush's theories regarding Betel's association with Moly] You have an analogy. Not even a slingshot, much less a smoking gun. I'll grant you that Wolfe doesn't always leave a smoking gun in plain sight, but I want to at least smell the smoke. Crush responds: We clearly are of different constitutions regarding smoke. This smoke makes me cough. It's just my way to ask myself (when reading) "why did he write this?" But more importantly, I tend to test my theories on Wolfe's stories against plausibility. Prosthetics made to look old for no apparent reason... Hammerstone "loses track" of someone when he was never sure where she was in the first place... Silk saying (as Rose totters by with her half mechanical body) wouldn't it be nice if we could build Rose some prosthetics... or even fly!... A common, valuable, useful technology (as opposed to merely artifacts) becomes rare...just because. I'm not seeing it.

Hmm.

Caveat that one doesn't know how Wolfe understands the terms nor if he intended the distinction to be at all significant, or if the American cultural context makes a difference. In a smaller establishment the terms might be used interchangeably. Principally I suspect to make the one member of the domestic staff - the maid of all work - feel a little better about scrubbing steps and blacking grates by upping her status because... In a household where there were sufficient domestics to make the hierarchy matter. Parlour maid: looks after public rooms and might, for lack of a footman serve teas or even formal meals. Chamber maid takes care of private rooms and by extention might be a lady's dresser which otherwise would fall to a... Ladies Maid. A house maid might work in the public parts of the establishment but without the particular duties or status of the parlour maid. A Scullery maid washes pots for the kitchen and is the lowest of the low. A kitchen maid might assit the cook or might be no more than a scullery maid who doesn't get her hands wet so often. A Tweenie, or between stairs maid was one who might be called upon to do duty anywhere from the kitchen upwards depending on where labour was needed and might well have been sweeping those stairs daily. That's the closest to a maid of all work in such a structured environment. If you think this is silly.... I'm afraid you're right. It's silly. I'm reasonably certain that even in it's best years the Cenoby would not have extended to that many maids and if Marble or Molybdenum wroked in a grander private house we don't see it to judge. Matthew

I should probably have restrained myself here, but you know what they say: if your maytera had Betel's nuts, she'd be your patera.

It was Wilt Chamberlain, as I recall. .